Grief and loss: leaning into a much-needed discussion in conversation with CeCelia Zorn, Tania Riske, and Nancy Petersen

Welcome to the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. I'm Jerry Hoepner. I'm a professor at the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire and co-facilitator of the Chippewa Valley Aphasia Camp, Blugold Brain Injury Group, Mayo Brain Injury Group, and Thursday Night Poets.

I'm also a member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their aphasia care through a variety of educational materials and resources.

I'm today's host for an episode that will feature three voices, one of a partner of an individual with primary progressive aphasia, CeCelia Zorn, who also happens to be a former professor in the department of nursing at the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire; along with Tania Riske, an SLP at the Mayo Clinic Health Systems Eau Claire, and Nancy Petersen, a social worker with expertise in grief and bereavement from Ability KC in Kansas City. Each of them have both professional and personal experience and expertise with grief and loss. June is aphasia awareness month, so we wanted to take this opportunity to share the lived experience directly. Today's episode will address grief, death, and loss: leaning into a much-needed discussion.

Biosketch:

Our first guest, CeCelia Zorn, Ph.D., met her husband Wayne in high school in rural northeastern Wisconsin. Wayne died from the consequences of primary progressive aphasia last August, 2023. Since that time, CeCelia has continued her work as an advocate for families living with primary progressive aphasia and more recently about grief, death, and loss as a care partner. Cecelia brings multiple perspectives to our conversation about grief, death, and loss. She is a registered nurse and a lifelong writer. She has been an award-winning university professor for 32 years. CeCelia reads voraciously, plays pickleball, and is relearning how to play the flute – taking individual lessons, playing in community bands and auditing university music history class. She volunteers at the local free clinic and is an active member of the Board of Directors for Wayne's former memory choir. On a daily basis, CeCelia strives for a life enriched by kindness, joy, perseverance, curiosity, patience, and collaboration. But she will be the first to tell you, "some days are easy but some days you just crash. Yet everyday it counts because I remind myself, life isn't waiting for the storm to pass it's about learning to dance in the rain."

Tania Riske, MS, CCC-SLP is a speech-language pathologist at Mayo Health Systems – Eau Claire. She initially entered the speech language pathology field through her volunteer work with the Chippewa Valley Aphasia Group and graduated from the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire Communication Sciences and Disorders program. Currently, she serves as an adjunct faculty member at UW Eau Claire, teaching undergraduate courses such as anatomy and physiology of the speech and hearing mechanism. Tania continues to enjoy treating patients with aphasia and their families within the LPAA Paradigm. Developing plans of care, counseling individuals' unique lifestyles, goals, interests, and priorities. Tania is an avid trail runner and equestrian.

CeCelia, Wayne, and Tania were my guests for Episode 49 – Primary Progressive Aphasia: A conversation with Wayne Zorn, CeCelia Zorn, and Tania Riske.

Nancy Petersen, MSW. Nancy grew up just outside Tulsa, OK and has an undergraduate degree in Speech Language Pathology from Oklahoma State University. She received a Master of Social Work from Jane Addams School of Social Work at the University of Illinois at Chicago, where she worked in urban hospitals and neighborhoods. Nancy is currently a Community Liaison for Ability KC, assisting patients as they transition from acute care to an intensive outpatient complex neuro-trauma rehab program. Her job also involves providing conferences and education to the medical and general Kansas City community. In her 30 years in the helping professions, she has learned much working in a variety of areas including nursing homes, hospice care, a suicide hotline, senior home care and case coordination. She has served on both the local and national Board of the Funeral Consumers Alliance providing education and advocacy relating to consumer protections in the funeral industry. Nancy is also involved with the Children's Mercy Hospital Rare Disease Patient Family Advisory Council, as well as the Ethical, Legal, and Social Integration (ELSI) Committee for the CMH Genome Project. Nancy has been married to Jimmy for 24 years and has an 18-year-old son with a rare disease, 21-year-old daughter, a cat, a dog and many wonderful friends.

Take aways:

• Avoidance. We avoid difficult conversations and miss opportunities to engage our clients and their families in important discussions about loss and grief.
• Culture. There is a culture in the US of avoiding or sugar coating conversations about grief, death, and loss; using euphemisms to describe death.
• Prolonging. We (as a society) are often guilty of prolonging life at any consequence and failing to consider quality of life.
• Loss. Loss and grief do not exclusively apply to death and bereavement. They apply, as we know, to identity and loss of a whole host of pieces of our lives and identity, particularly following stroke and aphasia.
• PPA and degenerative loss. This loss is something we know is going to happen and open conversations about loss may help to open the door to bigger conversations about death and dying.

Interview Transcript:

Jerry Hoepner: let's just kind of settle into a conversation. I really appreciate having the 3 of you here together. I know you all fairly well, but having the lens of a speech language pathologist, the lens of a social worker, and the lens of someone with the lived experience themselves is just a great way to have a conversation about a complicated and challenging conversation sometimes one that maybe people want to avoid. So, I'm just excited to talk to all of you. I'm going to open it up on the front end with a really broad question. I want to be careful, you know. I don't want to make you relive moments and things like that, but I also know that you are here because you want to be advocates for teaching and conversations about death and dying and grieving, and all of those processes. So, wondering if the 3 of you are willing to share a little bit about your personal background and experiences with grief. CeCelia, go ahead.

CeCelia: Yup, yeah, I happy to start. Thanks, Jerry, for kind of pulling us all together. I really appreciate the opportunity to be part of the conversation. The thing that comes to mind when you pose that question is my family history around dying and grief and death and I'm so fortunate to have had that family experience. I think it was sort of a balance between the emotional side of dying and death, and the practical side of dying and death, and our family held both of those at the same time. It wasn't just the emotion, and it wasn't just the practical aspects, but it was sort of, I don't know, running down a river of white water with one foot in each canoe, and I remember specifically, at my dad's death bed. There were 7 of us kids, and we of course, mourned his passing and were extremely emotional about that, and stayed with him 24, 7 for 3 weeks, etc. Etc. And but at the same time we were talking about. Should we have spaghetti or ham at his funeral luncheon? So, sort of the practical aspects of how is this all gonna come together in a few weeks when we knew the funeral was coming? So, for me, that's a strength that has carried throughout my life. And I I just am so appreciative of that. And I can only speak to my experience. Perhaps other families have had similar experiences, or one versus the other, or neither. But I just wanted to sort of throw that out there. That sort of ability to handle both things sort of in the same at the same time, has been a source of strength for me.

Jerry Hoepner: Wow! Thanks for sharing that, CeCelia. And I'm not sure that that is the experience of a lot of people that ability to do that. I want to take a step back, and mention something I should have mentioned. CeCelia. You kind of wear a couple of different hats, so you were a nursing faculty member for many, many years you have that holistic care, nursing perspective on grief and death as well, and then you also wear that lived experience hat as well. If I can use that metaphor in dealing with your husband. Wayne's death related to primary progressive aphasia. So just so. Our audience is understanding those perspectives. I think that's important. And to go back to what you just said, everyone has a different experience, and I'm not sure that everyone does process those things in parallel.

Jerry Hoepner: Nancy, I'll invite you to share a little bit next.

Nancy Petersen: Well, I'd be happy to. So, background is I have a master's in social work from Jane Adams at University of Illinois, at Chicago my experiences over the time figuring out what I wanted to be when I grew up, and what I ended up doing where I worked at a suicide hotline. For 3 years. I then worked in hospice for a number of years, including pediatric hospice while kind of in my life. At the same time my father died when I was 20, very unexpectedly at 52. I have worked in kind of every different version of the helping profession and nursing homes and pediatric settings and am currently working in complex neuro trauma rehab I was on the National Board for the funeral Consumers alliance when all of a sudden, my son was diagnosed with a rare progressive, neurodegenerative disease, 6 years ago and we're dealing with what that means and what that looks like. What that does to a 13-year-old when they get diagnosed with something that will limit his life. And so have kind of truly become aware of the difference between someone who talks about life and things that people need to know and what how things should be in an academic way, and truly have learned what it feels like to live that you know, your parents are important, but kids are different. They hit different. And when you kind of start living that deeply, what I have learned becomes a lot closer to home, it just hits really close to home. So that's kind of my background. I did a lot of I wrote a section for Jerry's book about you know, one of the textbooks about death and dying, and what I believe about it. I'm kind of curious having not read it for a while. How my! Just how the changes in what has happened in my life. And Clark was sick then. So, it's not brand new, but even then kind of the differences of what happens over time when you're living kind of a situation like that. And I just looked at something. I wrote a while back a presentation called Death as a 5-letter word and it has some interesting things in it as well. So, I think the topic of death has no answers. And the talk of bereavement has no answers, and very often people who are bereave, who are bereaved, or who are getting ready to, who are bereaving before the death, want there to be. And I think that's one of the biggest, although obvious. When you stop and think about it, that's one of the biggest issues that you're going to run into families is they want an answer to make it better. And it's very hard to explain to people they have to live it. That's part of the problem, and the issue with grief is that you can't step around it. If you do, you'll find yourself in far worse situation than if you live through it. So, I think for caregivers or those around you. There's a lot more to say about what to do for someone or with someone who's experiencing it. So, I try to look at it from all the different perspectives to see what sometimes nonsense I can spout. That sounds intelligent, because truly it is such an individual, it is so utterly individual. And there aren't right ways and wrong ways. People think there's a good way or a bad way, or they think there's a right way. And what happens is what happens. And the biggest problem is making sure that you know when it's kind of out of hand or when you need external kick assistance. You need to understand how long it lasts. You need to understand what happens in that and that it's okay. So much of what's going to happen that feels difficult or feels odd or feels out of place is normal. And maybe that's our goal is to normalize people's reaction to it is to normalize their own personal journey as not being something. Then you have to compare to anyone else's.

Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, that's such an important point. And again, really emphasizes the fact that all 3 of you are experts with multiple lenses. And I guess everyone is at some point in their life. You know you. You bring your personal background to it, your professional background to it, and then your experiences with life and death and grieving, and all of those things. So, really, I mean, I think we're really fortunate to have this conversation with 3 individuals who have such a broad lens, and are able to view death and grieving from multiple lenses like you all are. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Tania. I'll let you jump in next. If that's okay.

Tania Riske: Yeah, that'd be great. Well, as a clinician, I think I really first sort of became interested in and in investing in conversations about grief because I saw a lot of patients who were facing terrible diagnoses and care partners who are trying to figure out how to sort that out and not having the opportunity to do that. Your neurologist was maybe going to be interested in providing analysis and checking in with you every few months, and maybe adjusting your medications. Your primary care provider was keeping an eye on your blood pressure and your cholesterol. And there just really wasn't a person or a provider who was acknowledging that there was going to be partings happening, that this you know, that this might be a diagnosis that was going to lead. Brief or certainly significant life changes. So it wasn't being talked about. It wasn't being supported, and that really started to make me feel like there was a that was a gap that needed to be filled, the conversations that needed to be opened and had and continued, it wasn't just a one and done kind of conversation, using it to be ongoing conversations and support. And as things change, the conversation maybe changes a little bit, and the resources change. So, I became really interested in the role of speech, language, pathologists, and other providers also in supporting brief and just. Incidentally, as this became a bigger part of what I was thinking about and taking up more headspace for me and making me really think about how I was practicing and how it's impacting patients and families. Incidentally, I lost an adult child. So, I have some of my own grief that I'm dealing with as well, and you can hear that coming up me a little bit right now. But it really shapes how I think about grief and how it's impacting families, and what they might need, or what they might want. And when I was hearing Nancy talk about there being no real answers, and gosh! Families want answers so badly and helping them explore through their grief. And what's right for them and supporting that. And when CeCelia talks about that practical versus the emotional standpoint having one foot in each canoe. I don't think that's an experience that a lot of families have. I think that that's such a lovely perspective and strength that you have, CeCelia but I don't think a lot of other families have that. So as a clinician, investing in families and helping them to have those conversations and recognize that there's not right or wrong answers. But the questions are very fair and very valid, and just be able to support that in a way that feels authentic and feels genuine and caring, and not filled with trite comments and superficial responses. And let's move on from this because we've got other things to talk about, I think, is really important.

Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, thanks for sharing those perspectives. Tania. And one thing that I want to highlight for this particular podcast is, we're working with individuals with communication impairments who have maybe additional barriers to talking about death and dying. So, I mean beyond the challenges that we have with what that all of us have in everyday conversations about death and dying. That's just an additional layer. From the standpoint of sharing education with them, but also decision making and planning that becomes so much more challenging in that context.

Nancy Petersen: Well, and more importantly, it may isolate them even further from those around them who could support them, who were having enough trouble, just having regular conversations with them. And now we need to have a conversation that's frightens them, that they don't know how to do and I will never forget one of my that I just read said that people who are trying to support people need to remember they're not expected to be Yoda like you. You aren't. You don't have to have the answers, and we for some reason think that is such an important thing that if you talk to someone about something difficult. I said. If you know suddenly, if you someone you know, has cancer, you're supposed to be able to talk to them about cancer treatment. I mean, I don't. The people that helped me the most in the most difficult situations in my life have been the ones who said the least and I don't know why that is hard for people to grasp or be okay with. Hmm. I think part of it is that we are really bad at silence in general and we feel like everything has to be filled. And I am one of those people who, when I get anxious, I just talk more so when I'm being silent is a learned skill, and that is something that many of us is skilled. Many of us don't have.

Tania Riske: I think you're right on with that, Nancy. It's so hard to be quiet and listen and I think especially many of us who are in clinical or provider fields tend to feel like it is my job and my responsibility to try to fix this or make it better. But that's not true. But, boy, it's that's what we want to do.

Nancy Petersen: Right. Even I have put in that situation, and knowing, you know, it's kind of the same thing about having a sick child, I know the right thing to do but I don't. My emotions. I'm not always. I don't always react with my brain. So, you have to have a lot of self-talk to say. Now, remember, you don't have to know everything, and quiet is good, and they know their own answers, and even with a degree in speech, I mean my undergrad in speech, pathology, so I only know enough to be dangerous. But my I mean social work teaches you to let people find their own answers, and it's still so difficult to do in a really serious situation to not want to fix and to not want to help and it's hard to believe that help is less in situations such as serious grief.

CeCelia: And maybe it's not necessarily just sort of pure silence, but it might be reframing.

Nancy Petersen: Reflection. Yeah, I agree.

CeCelia: You know. Help me understand what you're thinking, or help me understand what you're feeling, rather than sort of tolerating the silencing. When this person is done talking. Then I can go on to some real things, but sort of reframing that silence in a new way might be helpful in some situations.

Nancy Petersen: Certainly, active listening is/can be good. I mean, it can be very helpful in many situations. What I kept getting was, what can I do? when I was in that situation, all I wanted to say was, if you can't make my dad well, there's nothing you can do, and it almost angered me that peopl