602 – Does Speculative Fiction Have a Canon?

Fantasy has plenty of cannons, and so does scifi, if we include beam weapons. But does either of them have a “canon?” The concept of a literary canon is squishy to begin with, and it is not the gold standard of quality the way some people insist, but that doesn’t mean it’s not important. This week, we’re discussing whether speculative fiction has something similar, which books would go in it, and what that even means.

Show Notes

• The Literary Canon
• Catcher and the Rye 
• Lord of the Rings 
• Frankenstein 
• Dune 
• A Song of Ice and Fire 
• Wheel of Time 
• Twilight 
• The Hunger Games 
• Interview With The Vampire 
• Anne Rice Fires Her Editor 
• Discworld 
• The Name of the Wind
• The Structure of Romance
• The Broken Earth
• The Blade Itself
• The City We Became
• The Witcher 
• Dungeon Crawler Carl
• Legends and Lattes

Transcript

Generously transcribed by Ace of Hearts. Volunteer to transcribe a podcast.

Oren: And welcome everyone to another episode of the Mythcreant Podcast. I’m Oren.

Chris: And I’m Chris.

Oren: Recently, I heard someone asking if science fiction and fantasy had a canon, and I thought that was weird ’cause, yeah, like, lots of them. Like, what kind of cannon do you mean? Like, there’s… flintlock fantasy is a whole genre, and if there’s, like, laser cannons, that’s even more! But then I realized they were spelling it with one N, and they meant does it have, like, a literary canon, and I don’t know. I wasn’t sure if it did or not. So that’s what we’re talking about today.

Chris: I mean, that’s not a formal thing, right? I mean, we do have extended universes, which are generally non-canon. So is it maybe everything that’s not in an extended universe?

Oren: Well, it may be, but before I answer that, if you’ve been enjoying the podcast, we could use your help. We are currently looking for more transcription volunteers to help us make sure that every episode launches with a transcript, and we are very grateful to our existing volunteers. We just wanna make sure that they don’t get burned out. We typically send an episode every six weeks or so at the most, so if you’re interested, go to mythcreants.com/volunteer.

Now, yes, I think that’s actually the answer. We have many canons, because spec fic nerds won’t stop arguing about what’s canon and not canon. But of course, the first question is what is the literary canon? And the answer is it’s very nebulous.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, this is just the books that people worship, right?

Oren: I mean, more or less. You know, they are books that people with literary clout both think are influential and also good, right?

Chris: See, I guess, I definitely don’t always like the idea of having a list of books that we’re supposed to be worshiping. That’s unhealthy, right? It’s unhealthy to hold up these works because a lot of times they’re treated as though they’re perfect in some way, and all stories are flawed, and it’s important we understand that. And it comes along with the idea of “the greats,” right? There’s these people who are destined for greatness, who write great literature, and it’s not a matter of skill so much as it is a matter of cultural clout that somebody is treated like that. And trying to aim for that level is… again, in the end, I don’t think it’s healthy, right? We’re trying to aim for something unattainable that depends on the validation of others. So, you know, I don’t like that idea in general. However, I do feel like we could maybe separate the ideas of what’s influential from what’s perfect.

Oren: Right. And there are a lot of books that are influential that would never be considered part of the literary canon because they don’t, you know, get lauded in the same way. Like, a book has to be lauded to count. And I’m not asking whether we should have one, I’m just curious if we do have one. I think the answer is yes, whether it should be or not.

Chris: I mean, I can certainly list books, and I’m happy to do that, that I think would be part of the canon if we were looking at what is influential and has helped shape and define the genre or subgenres. You know, we could definitely go over that list. I would just want to specify: the goal here of this list is not to treat every influential book as though it’s a masterpiece.

Oren: Right. ‘Cause in the literary canon, these are books like Grapes of Wrath, uh, anything by Tolstoy. If you had to read it in high school literature, there’s a good chance it would be considered part of the canon. People, of course, argue about what books do and don’t belong there all the time.

Chris: Yeah. I do think that there’s this old idea of there being a set of classic books that all educated people are supposed to have read, right? And this is a point that I think Wes made in an old episode, where one book would allude to another classic book because that was its way of saying, “Hey, I’m knowledgeable. I have, of course, read the books I was supposed to read.” Right? And that, that group, that list of classic books that everybody who’s educated reads then becomes part of the cultural conversation and how you prove that you’re educated, by having the knowledge of these classic works. And it creates this exclusive literary club. Again, I don’t think this is a great idea, but I kinda wonder if the canon is tied to that idea where, of course, you know, you have to read this set of books or you’re uneducated.

Oren: Yeah. And I do get the appeal of, like, what if there were certain books that everyone had read? Because then we would have a common base of reference.

Chris: Yeah, it’d be easier to have examples that people were familiar with if everybody had read the same books.

Oren: I mean, that is one of the reasons why I use examples from Lord of the Rings so much, right? Lord of the Rings and movies, because it’s much easier to guarantee that a larger percentage of my audience has seen those. Whereas if I’m using, even from relatively popular book series, like, you know, Temeraire did very well, but I have to explain a lot more of the Temeraire example for it to work, right? Whereas with Lord of the Rings, nearly everybody who comes to our site is at least aware of Lord of the Rings, even if they haven’t read it. So I understand the concept. I just don’t really think it’s workable because the moment you try to do that, you are having to exclude a bunch of books, and it’s hard for me to imagine any criteria you would set up that would A) be something you could get other people to adopt, and B) would not be, like, exclusionary along some lines that you don’t want to exclude books on.

Chris: Yeah, it would definitely introduce a lot of potential for bias. Not that the bias wouldn’t happen anyway, you know?

Oren: Sure.

Chris: I think there is a lot of bias when people share around books and what books they worship. There are certain patterns in who the authors of those books are.

Oren: Yeah, we’ll never know what those patterns are. Impossible to know.

Chris: So I guess that kinda happens anyway, but I think the problem is when you have a set classic list of books that everybody’s supposed to read. Hopefully in time books will change and you’ll diversify that list, but then it becomes really controversial if people are like, “Hey, maybe we shouldn’t read Catcher in the Rye in class.” And it’s like, “What do you mean? It’s a classic!” It’s like, “Okay, but should it be, though? Should it be?”

Oren: Maybe we should read something else. I mean, because that is sort of the thing. If you’re going to have a canon and you wanna add books to it, you have to take some out, otherwise the concept is meaningless and it’s just all books now. But looking at speculative fiction specifically, it’s pretty clear that we have some books that people do treat the way that literary people treat their canon.

Chris: Lord of the Rings is probably the most obvious one.

Oren: Right.

Chris: It’s interesting because Frankenstein is another one that’s really famous, but Frankenstein is probably less referenced among just speculative fiction fans and more among actually literary fiction. It is science fiction, and it is, I would say, part of the canon, but definitely Lord of the Rings… because its influence, I think, is greater or considered greater or more relevant today anyway, right? That is the one that immediately comes to mind for everybody as being an important thing that everybody knows and everybody references. Even if you haven’t read it, even if you haven’t seen the movies, there are probably some things you know, like that there’s an evil ring in that story, for instance.

Oren: Yeah. And then there are, like, a handful of others, and then it starts to fracture based on your subgenre. You know, Dune is another one that is, you know, not only influential, but it’s also highly lauded as having a special kind of literary merit. Obviously, I don’t agree.

Chris: Is it?

Oren: Yeah, absolutely!

Chris: Okay. Yeah.

Oren: For one thing, there’s Dune fans, and they are, like, easily the most pretentious of the fan group that I’ve upset. But just the way people talk about Dune is that it’s, like, extremely deep, right? You have people quoting Herbert’s ideas from outside the book about how a charismatic leader will lead us to damnation. You know, as if that’s very profound and not something that everybody says at all times, and arguably isn’t even in the first book. But that’s the way people talk about Dune, and people talk about Song of Ice and Fire the same way. That’s a much more recent one that I would say is treated the same way that literary canon books get treated.

Chris: Yeah. So what do you think about Wheel of Time, since Wheel of Time is clearly derived from Dune?

Oren: Derived from Dune and derived from Lord of the Rings.

Chris: Very true.

Oren: Personally, I don’t think Wheel of Time is there, and this isn’t a quality judgment. As I’ve stated, I don’t really think that being considered part of the canon makes a book better. But I don’t think that there is the same attitude towards Wheel of Time as you get for, like, Dune or Lord of the Rings or Song of Ice and Fire.

Chris: So you’re judging this not by, like, how many books have imitated this book, but by the worshipfulness with which people talk about it.

Oren: I think it’s both. I think it is a combination, and I think one often causes the other. You know, for example, Twilight was hugely influential, but no one is ever gonna talk about Twilight the way they talk about the literary canon. They might do that for Hunger Games. Like, Hunger Games is starting to get there. Gut check here, right? I can’t scientifically test this, but just the way people talk about Hunger Games as, like, how important its messages are and how insightful it is. And, you know, I like Hunger Games. It’s a good book. I’m glad to see it getting recognition, and I think that it might get there, and it’s also extremely influential.

Chris: Yeah. I mean, with Twilight, I think Twilight is influential, and I hope someday it will be less disparaged. Not that it’s a perfect book, right? I just don’t think that there’s anything about it that deserves the kind of ridicule it gets. At the same time, we can go back to Twilight and see, well, I would say The Vampire Chronicles are the ones that would be considered part of the speculative fiction canon, the Anne Rice vampire series.

Oren: Oh yeah, that’s definitely one. I should’ve thought of that.

Chris: Because that influenced Twilight, right? So if we go back, that’s what started our paranormal romance vampire subgenre, it started with Vampire Chronicles.

Oren: Yeah, and it has the veneer of awe, right? The way people talk about Interview with the Vampire, which is extremely funny in the context of Anne Rice firing her editor on Facebook.

Chris: Because her every word is perfect.

Oren: That’s such a crass thing to do for the author of a series that people talk about the way they talk about Interview with the Vampire.

Chris: Yeah. But it speaks to how much he was worshiped that she just didn’t feel like she needed to be edited. There’s a lot of arrogance in that move that probably comes from being worshiped too much.

Oren: Yeah. And Discworld, people talk about Discworld in a similar way. I just don’t know if Discworld has reached the level of popularity that I would say is required to make-

Chris: Really?

Oren: Uh, yeah. 

Chris: Well, maybe I just hang out with a bunch of Discworld fans.

Oren: You do.

Chris: ‘Cause it feels like Discworld definitely, as a whole entity, is there. It’s definitely worshiped. It’s very popular. I would be surprised.

Oren: I mean, you definitely do hang out with a certain subgroup, but also, you’re not wrong. Like, Discworld is popular, and people both rightly and wrongly laud Discworld for its supposed brilliance. It’s just to me, I don’t think we’re quite at the worshipful level yet. But I could be wrong. [sarcastic] Maybe we are, and I just don’t see it because of how amazing and beautiful Discworld is. It’s outshining the way people worship it.

Chris: Yeah. Well, let’s just say I think we still have a plugin, it’s possible that I had to disable it on our website, that is a tribute to Terry Pratchett ’cause it sends messages over the interwebs that represent the clacks messages.

Oren: Mm-hmm.

Chris: Right? Like, you know, that was one of those things that I feel like people had a great deal of reverence for, calling him Sir Terry Pratchett, so yeah.

Oren: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that very well could be right.

Chris: And he was knighted, right? I do think that speaks to a certain level of cultural reverence.

Oren: Yeah, he did get plenty of recognition. He was not toiling in obscurity.

Chris: One book that I have to say, you know, I might begrudgingly put on this list is Name of the Wind just because I’ve seen enough knockoffs of Name of the Wind now. I can’t point and say Name of the Wind started this specific subgenre, but people definitely speak of it in very worshipful tones, which annoys me. And again, we’ve seen a couple of extremely blatant knockoffs, one of which is its own bestseller, which again speaks to the fact that people are inspired by it and are copying it, and so it definitely has some level of influence.

Oren: Yeah, it’s possible. Name of the Wind did pretty well for itself. It sold a lot of books, and certainly a lot of people talked about how brilliant it was. At the moment, I haven’t seen the kind of extra-textual discussion that I associate with people talking about canon works. Like, you know, I haven’t seen anyone quote lines from the book as wisdom the way they do with Lord of the Rings and Dune. And Pratchett, honestly – and so I think that that speaks to your point actually that Pratchett probably does count.

Chris: Yeah, in fact, I think I quoted Pratchett myself in one of my blog posts. Um, although actually the funny thing was I was quoting another author quoting Pratchett.

Oren: I haven’t seen that sort of tributes for Name of the Wind, but maybe.

Chris: Yeah, and maybe it’s a little new and it will get there or something like that. You know, we’ll see what happens with its cultural influence if it spreads. What do you think about Narnia?

Oren: Yeah, I would say so.

Chris: I mean, it’s very popular… I feel like almost everybody has been exposed to Narnia or was when they were kids. I’m kind of struggling to think about what books were inspired by Narnia. I mean, it is a portal fantasy, so we’ve had other portal fantasies. It’s probably not the first portal fantasy. We’ve got Wizard of O