Against the Rules: Blockers Companion Podcast
- Episodes
- 109
- Format
- Series – listen from the start
- Latest episode
- Nov 10, 2026
About the podcast
Michael Lewis’s latest book Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State tells the story of federal civil servants who risked — and in most cases, lost — their jobs in the early days of the second Trump administration. In this companion series, we hear about how Lewis reported the book and what kind of government we’re left with after the ravages of DOGE.
Get Blockers now at blockersbook.com or wherever books are sold.
Journalist and bestselling author Michael Lewis explores the figures in American life who rely on the public's trust, whether in sports, in business, in the courtroom, or on TV. What happens when that trust erodes and we can no longer agree on what's fair and what's not?
Episodes 109
Talking Blockers with Reese Witherspoon
Early in his book tour, Michael Lewis stopped in Nashville to talk about his new book with local novelist Ann Patchett and actor/producer Reese Witherspoon. Their discussion ranged from the data raids at the …
Show notes
Early in his book tour, Michael Lewis stopped in Nashville to talk about his new book with local novelist Ann Patchett and actor/producer Reese Witherspoon. Their discussion ranged from the data raids at the IRS to revenge on science research to the challenges of depicting “real people” on the page and on film.
Get Blockers now at blockersbook.com or wherever books are sold. You can save 25% on the audiobook when you use the code BLOCKERSBOOK at blockers.fm.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
A Bad Week at the US Institute of Peace
In this excerpt from the audiobook version of Blockers, Michael Lewis tells the dramatic story of a showdown at the United States Institute of Peace. Although the institute was created by Congress and run as a …
Show notes
In this excerpt from the audiobook version of Blockers, Michael Lewis tells the dramatic story of a showdown at the United States Institute of Peace. Although the institute was created by Congress and run as a private corporation, President Trump’s Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) targeted it for takeover. In the early months of 2025, the institute’s head of security decided to fight back.
You can save 25% on the audiobook when you use the code BLOCKERSBOOK at blockers.fm.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Blockers: A New Audiobook from Michael Lewis
Exciting news! I have an all new book coming out on October 6th: BLOCKERS. You can pre-order your copy of the audiobook exclusively at blockers.fm. The hardcover is available at michaellewiswrites.com. A …
Show notes
Exciting news! I have an all new book coming out on October 6th: BLOCKERS. You can pre-order your copy of the audiobook exclusively at blockers.fm. The hardcover is available at michaellewiswrites.com.
A blocker is the worst thing you could be during President Trump's second term—especially if you worked in the federal government and wanted to keep your job. A blocker was a holdover, an impediment, and, most of all, someone who didn’t belong. BLOCKERS tells the story of six people who believed they had a calling, who were convinced they were doing something the country couldn’t do without, and then discovered they were no longer wanted. One kept Americans’ most sensitive tax data out of the wrong hands and another made sure that politicians and civil servants played by the rules. One figured out how to stop wildfires from destroying suburban neighborhoods, another helped uncover the mysteries of cystic fibrosis.
BLOCKERS is an inside look at the early days of Trump’s Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) as told by the public servants it targeted and asks the question: If public servants can’t survive in government today, then what does that say about our country?
Pre-order your copy of the audiobook exclusively at blockers.fm. We'll send you a code for 25% off all Pushkin titles, including mine like Liar’s Poker and The Big Short, through the end of the year.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Live with Nicolle Wallace
Recently, Michael Lewis spoke with Nicolle Wallace, host of the podcast The Best People, at Symphony Space in New York. They discussed what it was like re-visiting the Big Short 15 years on. And we hear the …
Show notes
Recently, Michael Lewis spoke with Nicolle Wallace, host of the podcast The Best People, at Symphony Space in New York. They discussed what it was like re-visiting the Big Short 15 years on. And we hear the actor Zach Grenier dramatize a portion of The Big Short.
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Michael Burry Speaks
Of all the characters in The Big Short, fund manager Michael Burry (depicted by Christian Bale in the movie version) seemed the least likely to grant Michael Lewis a follow-up interview. Burry was one of the …
Show notes
Of all the characters in The Big Short, fund manager Michael Burry (depicted by Christian Bale in the movie version) seemed the least likely to grant Michael Lewis a follow-up interview. Burry was one of the first to see the subprime housing market crisis coming, and he actually helped Wall Street banks develop the credit-default swap, the instrument that allowed short sellers to make their bets against the market. Lately, Burry has been in the news again because his fund has taken short positions against tech giants Nvidia and Palantir. Now he finally sits down with Lewis as part of this series.
Burry recently launched a newsletter called Cassandra Unchained.
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
How the Financial Crisis Broke Politics
To wrap up our series on The Big Short, Michael Lewis speaks with two people who represent two very different responses to the financial crisis of 2008: US Senator Elizabeth Warren, an expert in bankruptcy law …
Show notes
To wrap up our series on The Big Short, Michael Lewis speaks with two people who represent two very different responses to the financial crisis of 2008: US Senator Elizabeth Warren, an expert in bankruptcy law who became an advisor to the Obama White House before running for higher office in Massachusetts. And Michael interviews former Trump White House advisor and right-wing podcaster Steve Bannon, who talks about how the financial crisis radicalized him.
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
How the Financial Crisis Broke Wall Street
To make sense of Wall Street’s hangover from the crash described in The Big Short, Michael Lewis calls up Matt Levine. Levine is author of the Money Stuff newsletter for Bloomberg Opinion and co-host of a …
Show notes
To make sense of Wall Street’s hangover from the crash described in The Big Short, Michael Lewis calls up Matt Levine. Levine is author of the Money Stuff newsletter for Bloomberg Opinion and co-host of a podcast by the same name. He’s also a former investment banker who was working at Goldman Sachs during the market crisis of 2008. He and Lewis talk about Bitcoin, bank regulation, and new forms of risk-taking — all ways Wall Street has changed since the crisis.
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Lessons of the Great Depression
Andrew Ross Sorkin writes the business and policy newsletter DealBook for the New York Times and is co-anchor of Squawk Box on CNBC. He also has a historical bent, and has a new book out about the causes and …
Show notes
Andrew Ross Sorkin writes the business and policy newsletter DealBook for the New York Times and is co-anchor of Squawk Box on CNBC. He also has a historical bent, and has a new book out about the causes and consequences of the Great Depression in the 1930s. Sorkin speaks with Michael Lewis about how that crisis differed from the financial crash of 2008, and what we can learn by comparing the two eras.
For more, check out Sorkin’s book 1929: Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History, and How it Shattered a Nation.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Lender of Last Resort
When Michael Lewis wrote The Big Short, there was an extra character in the story: The Federal Reserve System, the central bank of the US, which bought up bad debt on the balance sheets of big Wall Street banks …
Show notes
When Michael Lewis wrote The Big Short, there was an extra character in the story: The Federal Reserve System, the central bank of the US, which bought up bad debt on the balance sheets of big Wall Street banks and trading firms. To better understand the Fed’s role in the financial crisis of 2008, Michael turns to UC Berkeley economics professor Emi Nakamura. And in the process, we get a master class in how currency works, and why there’s still some gold in the vaults of the Fed.
For more, check out Emi Nakamura’s Macro Policy Lab.
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The FrontPoint Boys
The Big Short is centered around the story of investment advisors who noticed something was seriously wrong with the subprime housing market starting in the early 2000s. Why did the traders at FrontPoint …
Show notes
The Big Short is centered around the story of investment advisors who noticed something was seriously wrong with the subprime housing market starting in the early 2000s. Why did the traders at FrontPoint Partners and others bet against the herd, at great risk to their reputations and their own careers? And what happened after those bets paid off — because the market crashed? Michael Lewis catches up with some of the most memorable characters in his book to find out what being right has done to their lives.
For more, check out a newsletter by Danny Moses, Vincent Daniel, and Porter Collins called WHAT ARE WE DOING? (WAWD).
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The Short Sellers
Michael Lewis speaks with Greg Lippmann, formerly a bond trader at Deutsche Bank, made famous when he was portrayed by Ryan Gosling in the movie version of The Big Short. And Lewis catches up with Steve Eisman …
Show notes
Michael Lewis speaks with Greg Lippmann, formerly a bond trader at Deutsche Bank, made famous when he was portrayed by Ryan Gosling in the movie version of The Big Short. And Lewis catches up with Steve Eisman, the Wall Street investor who was played by actor Steve Carell. When did they each start to suspect the subprime mortgage market was rotten, and why? And how did they perceive each other in the wary days and months before the market crashed?
For more, check out Steve Eisman’s podcast, The Real Eisman Playbook.
Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Michael Lewis Interviews His Producer
Against the Rules producer Lidia Jean Kott is the host of a new podcast series called The Chinatown Sting. It’s about a group of unlikely suspects at the center of a massive drug bust that took place in 1980s …
Show notes
Against the Rules producer Lidia Jean Kott is the host of a new podcast series called The Chinatown Sting. It’s about a group of unlikely suspects at the center of a massive drug bust that took place in 1980s New York. Recently Michael spoke with LJ about her series at a coffee shop in Brooklyn called Land to Sea.
You can listen to all six episodes of the “The Chinatown Sting” on Apple, Spotify, pushkin.fm/chinatown, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Adam McKay is Still Angry About 2008
When Adam McKay decided to make a movie based on The Big Short, he was mainly known for his comedies. But he managed to get a bevy of star actors — among them Ryan Gosling, Brad Pitt, Steve Carell and Margot …
Show notes
When Adam McKay decided to make a movie based on The Big Short, he was mainly known for his comedies. But he managed to get a bevy of star actors — among them Ryan Gosling, Brad Pitt, Steve Carell and Margot Robbie — to sign on and bring the intensity and arcane financial jargon of Wall Street to life. Michael Lewis sits down with McKay a decade after he made the Oscar-winning movie version of The Big Short to learn about the challenges of getting the film made — and why he’s still making movies about societal collapse.
Get The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, Apple Books, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
The Big Short is Big Back
Back in 2008, Michael Lewis started paying attention to Wall Street again, as banks and investment funds started to announce massive losses. Fifteen years ago, he published The Big Short, about a group of …
Show notes
Back in 2008, Michael Lewis started paying attention to Wall Street again, as banks and investment funds started to announce massive losses. Fifteen years ago, he published The Big Short, about a group of traders and investors who bet against a market that refused to see what was coming. Now it’s time to revisit both the book and the Oscar-winning movie based on it.
Get The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, Apple Books, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Sen. Richard Blumenthal on the SAFE Bet Act
Is anyone trying to regulate sports gambling on the federal level in the US? In the fall of 2024, Connecticut Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal introduced a bill with New York Congressman Paul Tonko. The …
Show notes
Is anyone trying to regulate sports gambling on the federal level in the US? In the fall of 2024, Connecticut Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal introduced a bill with New York Congressman Paul Tonko. The SAFE Bet would restrict sports gambling ads and would help fund more gambling addiction treatment, among other things. Blumenthal speaks with Michael Lewis about why he sees sports gambling as a public health disaster in the making.
Further reading: Blumenthal’s press release on the SAFE Bet Act.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Dr. Laurie Santos on Group Psychology, the Teen Brain, and Happiness
Michael Lewis invites over Yale psychology professor Dr. Laurie Santos, host of The Happiness Lab at Pushkin, for a chat about what scientific research has to tell us about sports fandom, teenagers, and …
Show notes
Michael Lewis invites over Yale psychology professor Dr. Laurie Santos, host of The Happiness Lab at Pushkin, for a chat about what scientific research has to tell us about sports fandom, teenagers, and gambling.
You can sign up for The Happiness Lab newsletter here.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Natasha Schüll on the Antisocial Lure of Gambling
As an anthropologist, Natasha Schüll spent more than a decade doing field work in Vegas casinos, especially among the slot machine addicts. She tells Michael Lewis why many of those who play slots actually hate …
Show notes
As an anthropologist, Natasha Schüll spent more than a decade doing field work in Vegas casinos, especially among the slot machine addicts. She tells Michael Lewis why many of those who play slots actually hate to win. And she talks about how the digital overhaul of Vegas has made all forms of gambling, including sports gambling, more like slots.
For further reading: Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las Vegas by Natasha Schüll.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode 10: “Anybody Can Win, but Everybody’s Gonna Lose”
Perhaps you have someone in your life who’s prone to sports gambling. Michael Lewis has someone. So he comes up with a scheme to “inoculate” his 17-year-old son against the lure of placing bets online. All the …
Show notes
Perhaps you have someone in your life who’s prone to sports gambling. Michael Lewis has someone. So he comes up with a scheme to “inoculate” his 17-year-old son against the lure of placing bets online. All the while, Lewis tries to craft the perfect “master class” for would-be gamblers to understand the dangers of what they might be getting themselves into.
Here's his reading list:
The Logic of Sports Betting by Matt Davidow and Ed Miller
Stephen Pinker’s Rationality: What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, Why It Matters
Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O’Neil
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode 9: Framing the Gambler
Michael Lewis gets a glimpse of sports gambling's future by talking with writers in Great Britain and Australia, where the industry is even more entrenched. But the US has its own peculiar history of failing to …
Show notes
Michael Lewis gets a glimpse of sports gambling's future by talking with writers in Great Britain and Australia, where the industry is even more entrenched. But the US has its own peculiar history of failing to regulate dangerously addictive new products, and blaming the users instead. Especially when powerful industry advocates are able to pay scientists to sow doubt and delay the day of reckoning.
For further reading:
Lying for Money: How Legendary Frauds Reveal the Workings of our World by Dan DaviesCrikey’s coverage on sports gambling in Australia: Punted
Patrick Radden Keefe’s Empire of Pain: The Story of the Sackler Family and Purdue Pharma
Merchants of Doubt by Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode 8: The Integrity Landscape
Has betting based on inside intel on games gone down since sports gambling was legalized in the US? Not really, as Michael Lewis finds out. But what's gone up is misery for athletes. We hear from Atlanta Hawks …
Show notes
Has betting based on inside intel on games gone down since sports gambling was legalized in the US? Not really, as Michael Lewis finds out. But what's gone up is misery for athletes. We hear from Atlanta Hawks forward Larry Nance, Jr. about the rage, threats and wheedling that pro athletes now endure. The NCAA, former Massachusetts governor Charlie Baker, is trying to protect student athletes on campus, while their friends all bet on them, often underaged. Overall, the “integrity landscape” for US sports looks more and more pot-holed by the day.
For further reading: NCAA sports wagering survey
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Michael Lewis on the Prof G Pod
Just recently, Michael Lewis was a guest on the "Prof G" podcast with Scott Galloway. He talks about the rise of sports betting and why the consequences might be a "disaster" for US society. And the two discuss …
Show notes
Just recently, Michael Lewis was a guest on the "Prof G" podcast with Scott Galloway. He talks about the rise of sports betting and why the consequences might be a "disaster" for US society. And the two discuss the subject of Lewis's latest book, "Going Infinite."
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Vegas Sports Bookies on Old-School Betting
On a visit to Las Vegas, Michael Lewis meets three old-school sports bookies. Chris Andrews, Jimmy Vaccaro, and Vinny Magliulo book bets and set odds at the South Point Hotel Casino. They talk about how they …
Show notes
On a visit to Las Vegas, Michael Lewis meets three old-school sports bookies. Chris Andrews, Jimmy Vaccaro, and Vinny Magliulo book bets and set odds at the South Point Hotel Casino. They talk about how they got started in Vegas, the origins of the prop bet, and why it's bad for business to limit smart bets.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Gambler Billy Walters on the Sharp's Life
Michael Lewis sits down with Billy Walters, one of the most famous sports bettors of all time. They talk about Walters' impoverished childhood in Kentucky, and his transformation from an auto dealer to a …
Show notes
Michael Lewis sits down with Billy Walters, one of the most famous sports bettors of all time. They talk about Walters' impoverished childhood in Kentucky, and his transformation from an auto dealer to a professional poker player in Las Vegas to a sobered-up millionaire who's been indicted five times.
For further reading: Gambler: Secrets from a Life at Risk by Billy Walters.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode 7: Little Big Short
As a resident of California, Michael Lewis cannot place bets on any of the online sports books at the center of this season. They’re not allowed to operate in the state. But why? We hear from pastors, Native …
Show notes
As a resident of California, Michael Lewis cannot place bets on any of the online sports books at the center of this season. They’re not allowed to operate in the state. But why? We hear from pastors, Native Americans and short-sellers about why a handful of states are still holding out, and why those efforts are most likely doomed.
For further reading: Steve Ruddock’s gaming newsletter Straight to the Point
Inside the $400 million fight to control California sports betting by Gus Garcia-Roberts, Washington Post.
This episode has been corrected to reflect the accurate title of Victor Rocha. He is Conference Chair of the Indian Gaming Association, not the Chair.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode 6: VIP
What does it mean to be a “very important person” in the world of online sports betting? Not necessarily what you think. We hear from recovering gambling addicts and state regulators frustrated with some of the …
Show notes
What does it mean to be a “very important person” in the world of online sports betting? Not necessarily what you think. We hear from recovering gambling addicts and state regulators frustrated with some of the perverse incentives to keep people on a losing streak. Meanwhile, our show’s own producers hope for a VIP night at the concert of the year.
For further reading: Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Huge Mistake by Charles Fain Lehman.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode 5: The Mule
The role has many names: “Runner,” “mover,” “betting partner,” and “mule.” As skilled sports gamblers find themselves limited on apps, they turn to these affiliates to place their bets in return for a piece of …
Show notes
The role has many names: “Runner,” “mover,” “betting partner,” and “mule.” As skilled sports gamblers find themselves limited on apps, they turn to these affiliates to place their bets in return for a piece of the proceeds. Against the Rules decides to explore this murky world by signing up for mule-dom with one of the world’s most skilled sports bettors.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
An Interview with Ted Olson
Constitutional lawyer and former US Solicitor Ted Olson recently died at the age of 84. Olson represented the state of New Jersey in its efforts to overturn a federal ban on sports gambling. Those efforts …
Show notes
Constitutional lawyer and former US Solicitor Ted Olson recently died at the age of 84. Olson represented the state of New Jersey in its efforts to overturn a federal ban on sports gambling. Those efforts succeeded, as we hear in our episode "Welcome to the Garden State." But Olson and Michael Lewis talked about many other aspects of his vivid legal career. We're offering their full conversation today.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode 4: A Hard Way to Make an Easy Living
Michael Lewis heads to Las Vegas to explore the way sports betting used to work, up until the day it was rapidly legalized by states around the country. We meet the betting sharps who figured out what others …
Show notes
Michael Lewis heads to Las Vegas to explore the way sports betting used to work, up until the day it was rapidly legalized by states around the country. We meet the betting sharps who figured out what others couldn’t and set the odds for other bookies. That is, up until everyone seemed to have a casino on their smartphone. But the new online casino differs from the old ones in an important way: It doesn’t take all bets.
For further reading:
Edward Thorp’s Beat the Dealer
“Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Betting Ubiquitous” by
Eric Lipton and Kenneth P. Vogel
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Nate Silver on the Risky Business of Sports Betting
As the US election nears, Michael Lewis sits down with Nate Silver, co-host of the Pushkin podcast Risky Business (along with the writer, psychologist and professional poker player Maria Konnikova). They talk …
Show notes
As the US election nears, Michael Lewis sits down with Nate Silver, co-host of the Pushkin podcast Risky Business (along with the writer, psychologist and professional poker player Maria Konnikova). They talk about why people bet on elections, the problem with sports gamblers in the United States, and Silver’s new book, On the Edge: The Art of Risking Everything.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Marci Cottingham on the Religious Passion of Steeler Nation
Is there a difference between fandom and religion? In Pittsburgh, it can be hard to tell. Fans of the city’s football team, the Pittsburgh Steelers, seem to have a cradle-to-grave devotion, complete with a …
Show notes
Is there a difference between fandom and religion? In Pittsburgh, it can be hard to tell. Fans of the city’s football team, the Pittsburgh Steelers, seem to have a cradle-to-grave devotion, complete with a golden relic, the “terrible towel.” Michael Lewis talks with sociologist Marci Cottingham, a native of Steeler Nation, about her work studying the religious overtones of fandom, and why the positive experiences of sports fans should get more scholarly attention.
For further reading: Marci Cottingham’s Practical Feelings: Emotions as Resources in a Dynamic Social World
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
These are the latest 60 of 109 episodes. You’ll find older episodes in the podcast’s feed.
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