Skip to content
Deviate
PodcastSociety & CulturePhilosophyEnglish

Deviate

by Rolf Potts

NewHow the experience of long-term travel changes (in good ways) as you get olderNovember 3, 2026 · 50 min
Episodes
238
Released
monthly
Latest episode
Nov 3, 2026
WebsiteRSS feed

About the podcast

Rolf Potts veers off-topic in this unique series of conversations with experts, public figures, and intriguing people.

Episodes 238

  1. How the experience of long-term travel changes (in good ways) as you get older

    50 min

    “That's part of the fun of travel. Methodically crossing items off a Bucket List is less exciting than reimagining things as you go. It makes your life's journey part of an ongoing conversation rather than just …

    Show notes

    “That's part of the fun of travel. Methodically crossing items off a Bucket List is less exciting than reimagining things as you go. It makes your life's journey part of an ongoing conversation rather than just a static list of things to be crossed off.” – Rolf Potts

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jamin talk about how Rolf travels differently now that he's married to Kiki, and how his relationship to home has transformed as well (2:00); how travel changes at different phases of one's life, how travel shouldn't be a competitive pursuit, and where Rolf has yet to travel (8:30); how The Vagabond's Way has an older sensibility than Vagabonding, and what travel teaches you about fear and boredom (18:00); the travel metaphors embedded in The Odyssey, places Rolf might not return to, and what travel teaches you about faith traditions (27:00); good international places to begin journeys, and what a lifetime of travel can teach you about home (36:00).

    Jamin Coller hosts the If I'm Really Honest podcast.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  2. Sense of place in cinema: Las Vegas Never Plays Itself, with Tod Goldberg

    59 minSeason 6 · Episode 273

    “Las Vegas is hard to capture in art without leaning on cliche. The movie Casino doesn't lean on cliche because it created the cliche. The Hangover created the cliche for this next generation. Culture is is …

    Show notes

    “Las Vegas is hard to capture in art without leaning on cliche. The movie Casino doesn't lean on cliche because it created the cliche. The Hangover created the cliche for this next generation. Culture is is causing people to act a certain way when they get to Las Vegas.” – Tod Goldberg

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tod talk about how movies can "totalize" places like Las Vegas, depicting "The Strip" at the expense of other parts of the city (3:00); the way that the real Las Vegas is full of deeply weird places and people, while still being an amalgamation of American culture in general (8:00); bygone hotels and attractions and the "lack institutional memory" in Las Vegas, as well as what social classes of people are attracted to the city (16:00); the kinds of movies that have been made about Las Vegas, the cliches they entail, and what they imply about how (and where) the city should be experienced (25:00); what Las Vegas is like outside of (and in tandem with) the narrative cliches that have come to define it (39:00); how major league sports teams and Formula One racing have changed Las Vegas, and what movies about the city might look like in the future (46:00).

    Novelist Tod Goldberg is the New York Times bestselling author of over a dozen books, most notably the Gangsterland series of crime novels. He is also the producer, along with Martin Scorsese and Brian Koppelman, for The Roman, an upcoming Las Vegas casino drama series at Netflix.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  3. Travel memoir lab: How your journeys can inspire fictional adventure stories

    48 minSeason 6 · Episode 272

    “That first day in Mumbai, there was the slum to the side of us, there were sports cars that would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars next to people walking with no feet next to 200 people crammed into …

    Show notes

    “That first day in Mumbai, there was the slum to the side of us, there were sports cars that would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars next to people walking with no feet next to 200 people crammed into a bus. Separating those layers in a nuanced way lifts the writing that shows that you've gone there and been respectful of the people who live here.” – Luke Richardson

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Luke talk about Rolf's earliest travel adventures, why going slowly and spontaneously is the best way to travel, and what it's like to travel during times of natural disaster (2:00); how to write travel stories that are both interesting to the home audience and respectful of local communities, and how some of the best travel narratives are quest narratives (9:00); the tension between truth and possibility in storytelling, Rolf's "stranger than fiction" moments on the road, and narratives that inspired Rolf's early travels (17:30); Luke's adventure novels, and the travels that informed them (28:30); how Luke takes notes and records his adventures on the road, and how he writes about places he's never been (35:00); and Luke's advice for people wanting to write fictional adventure novels (41:00).

    Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. His adventure novels include The Ark Files, The Atlantis Agenda, and The Giza Protocol. He hosts the Adventure Story Podcast.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  4. Best of Travel: Paul Theroux on the necessary obstacles of meaningful journeys

    52 minSeason 6 · Episode 271

    "All writing is trying to destroy a stereotype, and the individual that you're writing about -- the figure in the landscape -- is actually the ideal." —Paul Theroux Paul Theroux's highly acclaimed novels …

    Show notes

    "All writing is trying to destroy a stereotype, and the individual that you're writing about -- the figure in the landscape -- is actually the ideal." —Paul Theroux

    Paul Theroux's highly acclaimed novels include Blinding Light, My Other Life, and The Mosquito Coast. His 1975 book The Great Railway Bazaar is credited with revitalizing the genre of literary travel writing, and his more recent travel books include Ghost Train to the Eastern Star, Dark Star Safari, and The Last Train to Zona Verde.

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Paul talk about Theroux's book Figures in a Landscape, and strategies for writing about the "human architecture of a place" (5:30); the attitude and time-investment required for meaningful travel reportage (20:30); the qualities that determine successful travel writing (25:50); the essential discomforts and obstacles of travel (32:45); the uses and shortcomings of paper maps in developing countries (40:15); and where Paul is traveling next (46:00).

    Media mentioned in the 2026 intro

    Books, articles, and films mentioned

    People mentioned

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel's 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we're happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  5. The geography of sports movies (with Chuck Klosterman and Michael Weinreb)

    58 minSeason 6 · Episode 270

    “"When I was in the third grade my teacher announced to our class that Ronald Reagan had been shot. When she asked if we had questions, I raised my hand and asked her if the Indiana - North Carolina basketball …

    Show notes

    “"When I was in the third grade my teacher announced to our class that Ronald Reagan had been shot. When she asked if we had questions, I raised my hand and asked her if the Indiana - North Carolina basketball game was still going to happen that night.” – Chuck Klosterman

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Chuck, and Michael hypothesize about where in Texas the town of "Dillon" is in the TV show Friday Night Lights (2:30); the role of sports and sports movies in how people perceive Indiana, and which sports fandoms are independent of geography (17:00); sports movies (and hypothetical sports movies) set in Michael's hometown of State College, PA, or Chuck's home-state of North Dakota, or Rolf's hometown of Wichita (27:00); working-class sports cities with bad reputations, and how geography determines the sports stories that are told there (40:00); the inherent placelessness of the NFL Scouting Combine and the Super Bowl, how sports are the last media events where the outcome is truly unknown, and what the best hypothetical scenario is for diehard fans watching a big game (50:00).

    Chuck Klosterman is a cultural critic known for analyzing pop culture, sports, and philosophy. He is the author of 13 books, including Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs, The Nineties, and, most recently, Football.

    Michael Weinreb (@MichaelWeinreb) is the author of three sports books, including Bigger Than the Game and Season of Saturdays. His Substack newsletter is called Throwbacks: A Newsletter About Sports History and Culture.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  6. Designing a creative life on your own terms (with Cedar Van Tassel)

    54 minSeason 6 · Episode 269

    “A joke is kind of like a little life-lesson in addition to being funny. If your joke is really good, there's a little nugget of truth in it.” – Cedar Van Tassel In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Cedar …

    Show notes

    “A joke is kind of like a little life-lesson in addition to being funny. If your joke is really good, there's a little nugget of truth in it.” – Cedar Van Tassel

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Cedar discuss why kids want to be paleontologists and astronauts, and the existential "book" Cedar wrote when he was four (2:00); how Cedar got started reading comics, which ones were his favorites, and his own early comics projects (8:00); the golden age of webcomics, and how Appleguy got started (16:00); the world of Appleguy and Beefwood, and its "roadside attraction" and other geographical subplots (24:00); how Cedar went from drawing an Instagram comic to having a book of comics published by a major North American indie comics publisher, and what his creative process looks like (37:30); and Cedar's four pieces of creative advice: 1) Be opportunistic; 2) Give yourself some rules; 3) Don't torture yourself; 4) People will find your interest in something interesting.

    Cedar Van Tassel (@appleguy_comix) is the author of Appleguy and Beefwood, which was published by the iconic Montreal comics press Drawn & Quarterly in May of 2026. A lifelong plant and prairie lover, he does work on ecological restoration projects throughout the Great Plains.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  7. What movies (do and don't) show us about places before we travel there

    42 minSeason 6 · Episode 268

    “When we don't foster local filmmaking traditions, we end up making movies about what we think life is like in the cities we do see movies about.” – Jason Bailey In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jason talk …

    Show notes

    “When we don't foster local filmmaking traditions, we end up making movies about what we think life is like in the cities we do see movies about.” – Jason Bailey

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jason talk about how being from Kansas influenced their careers as travel writers and film critics, and the long cultural shadow of The Wizard of Oz (2:30); how Jason's career started by making independent movies in Wichita, what those movies were like, and how he remembers them now (9:00); how many New York movies were shot in Los Angeles in the early part of the 20th century (19:00); how filmmaking moved back to New York during a less-than-glamorous time in the city's history, and how it's important to tell one more story about a place (26:00); and how technology might change the way movies are made and watched in the future (32:00).

    Jason Bailey (@jasondashbailey) is an author and film critic, whose writing has appeared in such publications as the New York Times and Rolling Stone. He is the author of six books, including Fun City Cinema: New York City and the Movies that Made It, and Pulp Fiction: The Complete Story of Quentin Tarantino’s Masterpiece.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  8. Exploring the idiosyncrasies of male friendship, with Andrew McCarthy

    51 minSeason 6 · Episode 267

    “I asked everyone if they were lonely. All the guys my age said 'no, I'm too busy; too much going on.' When I answer that quickly I'm either lying or it's something I'm afraid of.” – Andrew McCarthy In this …

    Show notes

    “I asked everyone if they were lonely. All the guys my age said 'no, I'm too busy; too much going on.' When I answer that quickly I'm either lying or it's something I'm afraid of.” – Andrew McCarthy

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about why Andrew took a USA road trip to reconnect with his friends (2:15); what kinds of friends Andrew sought out, why none of them were public figures, and how loneliness is bad for men's health (8:00); the kinds of men Andrew spoke with in passing on the trip, why Andrew sought out Elvis Presley sites on the road, and how women's friendships differ from men's (17:30); Andrew's takeaways from his road trip, why "showing up" for people is important, and how travel can be the "university of life" (28:00); audience questions about friendships between younger men, the rumored possibility of a St. Elmo's Fire sequel, the task of recording an audiobook, creepy things that happened on the road, and how travel inevitably makes us more open and curious (35:30).

    Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home, Brat and Walking with Sam. His newest book is Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendship Across America.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  9. Debunking the mythology of BEFORE SUNRISE, with co-writer Kim Krizan (in Paris)

    38 minSeason 6 · Episode 266

    "I think you have to pick your battles when you're collaborating with people." – Kim Krizan Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the …

    Show notes

    "I think you have to pick your battles when you're collaborating with people." – Kim Krizan

    Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

    Notable Links:

  10. Super Bowl special: Why football kind of matters, with Chuck Klosterman (kind of)

    46 minSeason 6 · Episode 265

    “I wish I loved sports, and particularly football, a lot less than I do. It consumes too much of my memory and too much of my time.” – Chuck Klosterman In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he's …

    Show notes

    “I wish I loved sports, and particularly football, a lot less than I do. It consumes too much of my memory and too much of my time.” – Chuck Klosterman

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he's talking to Chuck Klosterman's former roommate Michael Weinreb about Chuck's book Football, rather than Chuck himself (2:00); football-themed video games, and the difference between emotional and analytical sports fandom (7:00); Pico Iyer's appearance in the movie Marty Supreme, how podcasting has changed the landscape, and how streaming video has become the standard way to watch even high school football (17:00); why going to football games in person is a "pagan" experience of games that is completely different than watching them on TV, and how there's a travel parallel in experiencing distant places in person (24:00); how important the season and the weather is to the experience of football at both the experiential and metaphorical level (32:00); what might become of football, and why it persists as the object of fandom even by people who've never played it (39:00).

    Michael Weinreb (@MichaelWeinreb) is the author of three sports books, including Game of Kings; Bigger Than the Game; and Season of Saturdays. He has been a contributing writer for ESPN, The New York Times, Grantland, Rolling Stone, The Athletic, and The Ringer. His Substack newsletter is called Throwbacks: A Newsletter About Sports History and Culture.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  11. Time is your truest form of wealth (and travel helps you embrace your riches)

    58 minSeason 6 · Episode 264

    “In teaching us to appreciate rather than accumulate – to seek awe rather than outcomes – travel can be an ongoing exercise in gratitude.” – Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf remixes his interview …

    Show notes

    “In teaching us to appreciate rather than accumulate – to seek awe rather than outcomes – travel can be an ongoing exercise in gratitude.” – Rolf Potts

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf remixes his interview from the All the Hacks podcast, with Chris Hutchins. They discuss the concept of “Time Wealth,” how it can be actualized through travel, and how it can dovetail with your family and life goals (2:00); what kinds of travel-oriented experiences and attitudes and rituals can help you frame and identify your values and life-goals (10:30); how kids can be a window into new places as a traveler, and why slowing down and "seeing less" helps you experience more on the road (27:00); the limitations of planning your travels around a "Bucket List," and the merits of taking a travel attitude to your home environment (35:30); how to pack when traveling light, and how to use technology wisely on the road (45:30).

    Chris Hutchins (Instagram: @chrishutchins) is an avid optimizer and host of a top-ranked podcast, where he shares his quest to upgrade his life without having to spend a fortune.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  12. Kansas Never Plays Itself: How movies lie when they take us places

    1 h 14 minSeason 6 · Episode 263

    In this feature-length video essay that explores the role places play in storytelling, Rolf examines how Kansas -- his home state -- has been imagined, distorted, and mythologized in cinema and television for …

    Show notes

    In this feature-length video essay that explores the role places play in storytelling, Rolf examines how Kansas -- his home state -- has been imagined, distorted, and mythologized in cinema and television for more than a century.

    Blending archival film clips, historical analysis, and deeply personal narration, Kansas Never Plays Itself traces how cinematic shorthand shapes our collective imagination. The video essay invites viewers to reconsider what it means for a location to “play itself” — and what’s lost when the real landscapes and communities behind our most beloved stories remain unseen.

    Sneak preview of the video essay is online here.

    Chapters:

    0:00 - Intro: Not in Kansas Any More

    Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wizard of Oz (1939); Showdown at Abilene (1956); Gunsmoke (1955-1975); Dances with Wolves (1990); Kansas (1995); Capote (2005); The English (2022).

    2:00 - Part 1: No Place Like Home (or, Hollywood can’t tell the truth about places)

    Movies and TV shows mentioned: Suits (2011); Law & Order: SVU (2006); Elementary (2019); The Affair (2014); Slumber (2017); Vancouver Never Plays Itself (2015); Los Angeles Plays Itself (2003); Panic in the Streets (1950); Wichita (1955); Stark: Mirror Image (1986); Seinfeld (1992); Planes, Trains and Automobiles (1987); The Ice Harvest (2005); The Beach (2000); Mutiny on the Bounty (1962); Brigadoon (1954); Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989); Star Wars: A New Hope (1977); Game of Thrones (2012); The Game Camera (2025).

    15:05 - Part 2: Why Place Matters (or, The Wizard of Oz and Superman might be a little bit racist)

    Movies and TV shows mentioned: The Wiz (1978); The Wizard of Oz (1933); The Wizard of Oz (1925); The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (1910); Oz the Great and Powerful (2013); Wicked (2024); Smallville (2001); Superman IV: The Quest For Peace (1987); Man of Steel (2013); The Music Man (1962); Meet Me in St. Louis (1944); Gone with the Wind (1939); Swing (1938); Birthright (1939); Lying Lips (1939); Shaft (1971); The Learning Tree (1969); Oscar Micheaux documentary (2021); Adventures of Superman (1952–1958); Superman (1978).

    32:25 - Part 3: Why Location Matters (or, How movies lie when depicting places

    Movies and TV shows mentioned: Office Space (1999); Swingers (1996); Little Shop of Horrors (1986); Avatar (2009); The Matrix (1999); The Breakfast Club (1985); Ferris Bueller’s Day Off (1986); Splendor in the Grass (1961); Picnic (1955); Stand by Me (1986); Kansas (1988); Paper Moon (1973); In Cold Blood (1967); In Cold Blood TV miniseries (1996); Capote (2005); Infamous (2006); Smoke Signals (1998); Geronimo (1962); Navajo Joe (1966); Masterson of Kansas (1954); Buffalo Dance (1894); Last of the Renegades (1964); “Keep America Beautiful” PSA (1971); In the Land of the Headhunters (1914); Among the Cannibal Isles of the South Pacific (1918); The Rider (2017); Reservation Dogs (2021-2023).

    54:15 - Part 4: Why Kansas Matters (hint: it’s because all places matter)

    Movies and TV shows mentioned: He Got Game (1998); Crooklyn (1994); Do the Right Thing (1989); Lady Bird (2017); Boogie Nights (1997); Citizen Ruth (1996); Election (1999); About Schmidt (2002); Jayhawkers (2014); Ninth Street (1999); Destination Planet Negro (2013); The Incredible Brown NDN 2 (2020); Dancing on the Moon (2003); The Dead Can’t Dance (2010); Unsurety (2022); Fear Not (2020); Somebody Somewhere (2022-2024); 42nd Street (1933); King Kong (1933); Citizen Kane (1941); Guys and Dolls (1955); Sweet Smell of Success (1957); The French Connection (1971); Dog Day Afternoon (1975); Annie Hall (1977).

    1:09:00 - Postscript and end credits

  13. Traveling as a writer, and awkward book-tour experiences, with Anthony Doerr (from 2012)

    42 minSeason 6 · Episode 262

    “I’m interested in writing because I don’t want to sleepwalk through life. I feel like we have an appallingly brief time on earth, and we’re here to see and understand and do as much good as we can before we’re …

    Show notes

    “I’m interested in writing because I don’t want to sleepwalk through life. I feel like we have an appallingly brief time on earth, and we’re here to see and understand and do as much good as we can before we’re gone.” –Anthony Doerr

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Anthony talk about how the pace of travel changes the experience of travel, and what it’s like to travel as a writer (2:45); how to manage the local and the global, the specific and the universal, the concrete and the speculative, in one’s writing (12:30); how the idea of “home” influences one’s craft as a writer who travels (23:00); common mistakes writers make when writing about places and cultures they don’t know well, and humiliating travel (and book-tour) experiences (31:00).

    Anthony Doerr is a novelist and essayist, and short story writer. His 2014 novel All the Light We Cannot See won the Pulitzer Prize for Fiction, and was made into a Netflix miniseries in 2023.

    Books and authors mentioned:

    Other links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  14. Talking with my parents about how to handle it when your parents die (in memory of Alice Potts, 1943-2025)

    49 minSeason 6 · Episode 261

    Note: This encore episode is dedicated to the memory of Alice Potts, who died on August 20, 2025, aged 81. “In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t …

    Show notes

    Note: This encore episode is dedicated to the memory of Alice Potts, who died on August 20, 2025, aged 81.

    “In America aging is often seen as an insult rather than an inevitable human process. We don’t celebrate getting older; we ‘fight’ age by pretending to be young.” –Rolf Potts

    In this episode of Deviate Rolf and his parents, Alice and George Potts, talk about how surviving the COVID-19 pandemic has changed their relationship, and how it gave them a pretext to go through a “death checklist” together (3:00); how one’s grandparents and parents live on in one’s memories and one’s conversations, the life-values they passed on, and what it felt like when those loved ones declined and died (14:00); how, over the years, elderly people and philosophers have come to terms with notions of decline and death (31:00); and personal insights about what it’s like to have grown older after having lived a long life (44:00).

    George and Alice Potts are retired schoolteachers based in Kansas. George taught science at various Wichita high schools, as well as at Friends University, where he pioneered graduate-level programs in Zoo Science and Environmental Studies. He also helped facilitate the Outdoor Wildlife Learning Sites (OWLS) program for the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks. Alice taught second graders in the Wichita public schools for more than 30 years. In 1994 her classes succeed in promoting legislation to declare the barred tiger salamander the Kansas State Amphibian.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  15. An audiobook about how (not) to write a travel book: 9 lessons from my failed van-life memoir

    1 h 12 minSeason 6 · Episode 260

    “No endeavor to write a travel book is ever lost, since it gives you a useful perspective on (and intensified attention to) the reality of the travel experience itself. When embraced mindfully, the real-time …

    Show notes

    “No endeavor to write a travel book is ever lost, since it gives you a useful perspective on (and intensified attention to) the reality of the travel experience itself. When embraced mindfully, the real-time experience of a journey is invariably its truest reward.” –Rolf Potts

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf touches on nine lessons from attempting to write a (never finished) van-life vagabonding memoir at age 23, including:

    On Pilgrims in a Sliding World (1:00)

    Lesson #1: No work is lost (and “failure” has lessons to teach)

    On the author as a character (6:30)

    Lesson #2: “Show, don’t tell” is still good narrative advice

    On depicting other people (14:30)

    Lesson #3: Travel books require reporting (not just recollecting)

    On recounting dialogues (22:30)

    Lesson #4: Be true to what was said (but make sure it serves a broader purpose)

    On veering from the truth (32:30)

    Lesson #5: The truth tends to work better than whatever you might make up

    On depicting places (39:30)

    Lesson #6: “Telling details” are better than broad generalizations about a place

    On neurotic young-manhood (48:30)

    Lesson #7: Balance narrative analysis with narrative vulnerability

    The seeds of Vagabonding (1:01:30)

    Lesson #8: Over time, we write our way into what we have to say

    The journey was the point (1:06:30)

    Lesson #9: In the end, taking the journey counts for more than writing it

    Books mentioned:

    Essays, poems, and short stories mentioned

    Places and events mentioned

    Other links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  16. Vagabonding pioneer Ed Buryn on what indie travel was like in the 1960s and 1970s (encore)

    53 minSeason 6 · Episode 259

    “Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.” –Ed Buryn In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s …

    Show notes

    “Realizing that you will die greatly clarifies your vision of life, and stimulates opportunities for making the vision real.” –Ed Buryn

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ed discuss the impetus behind Ed’s first travels to Europe by van in the 1960s, and his early forays into self-printed and self-promoted books about the experience (3:00); how travel to Europe was different 50 years ago, and the joy and freedom that comes with not knowing what happens next (14:30); Ed’s philosophies and influences, including living in “the now” (21:00); how travel allows you to reinvent yourself, and how meeting people is the best gift of travel (36:00); and Ed’s ambitions for poetry and travel, and his advice to travelers in today’s world (44:30).

    Ed Buryn is an author and photographer who was one of the first to popularize the term “vagabonding” through the publication of his books Vagabonding In Europe and North America and Vagabonding in America. For more about Ed, check out https://edburyn.com.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  17. Why We Travel: Happiness, curiosity, wonder, sex, healing, and other motivations for hitting the road

    55 minSeason 6 · Episode 258

    "No one motivation is ‘better’ than any other. We travel with different motivations at different times, and they sometimes overlap." –Ash Bhardwaj In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ash talk about curiosity …

    Show notes

    "No one motivation is ‘better’ than any other. We travel with different motivations at different times, and they sometimes overlap." –Ash Bhardwaj

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Ash talk about curiosity as a motivation for travel (1:30); the ancient Greek concepts of happiness that underpin human motivations like travel, and how mentors influence travel (14:00); serendipity as a motivation for travel, Type One versus Type Two fun, and the dangers of "voluntourism" (21:00); how "awe" differs from "wonder," how to bring these perspectives home, and how "eroticism" can be a part of travel (36:30); "grief travel," and how one's sense for travel can become intertwined with a sense of hope (48:30).

    Ash Bhardwaj is an award-winning journalist and broadcaster, and the author of Why We Travel.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  18. Before Sunrise (redo): Screenwriter Kim Krizan on what led up to the classic travel-romance movie

    58 minSeason 6 · Episode 257

    "Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview …

    Show notes

    "Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

    Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

    Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  19. Before Sunrise: Screenwriter Kim Krizan on what led up to the classic 1995 travel-romance movie

    57 minSeason 6 · Episode 256

    "Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview …

    Show notes

    "Time spent traveling on trains, just staring out the window: I don't think that's lost time. That's when we have our best ideas." –Kim Krizan

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Kiki introduce their interview with Kim Krizan by talking about their own personal love of the movie Before Sunrise, and how they first experienced it (0:30); Kim talks about her early travel experiences in Czechoslovakia as a teenager, and in England in her twenties (14:30); how the low-information technological moment of travel in the 1990s doesn't exist anymore in the 2020s (23:30); how Kim became involved with helping Richard Linklater write Before Sunrise, and their creative process in working together (34:00); Kim's ongoing relationship to the movie, 30 years after it came out (44:00); and an "Easter egg" segment featuring Kiki reading Melissa Fite Johnson's poem "Before Sunrise on the VCR" (55:30).

    Kim Krizan (@kimkrizan) is the Oscar-nominated cowriter of the Before Sunrise movies, and the author of Spy in the House of Anaïs Nin.

    Kristen “Kiki” Bush is an actress, known for Paterno, Liberal Arts, Suits, Law & Order: SVU, and onstage performances at Manhattan Theatre Club, The Public, and Lincoln Center.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  20. Mars on Earth: The world's driest desert, and what travelers might find when they go there

    49 minSeason 6 · Episode 255

    “If you're someone who's always dreamed of going to Mars but you don't have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk …

    Show notes

    “If you're someone who's always dreamed of going to Mars but you don't have the time to become an astronaut, you can just visit the Atacama Desert.” –Mark Johanson

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Mark talk about how Mark became interested in the Atacama Desert, and his experience in other world deserts (1:45); what Mark sought when he traveled through the region (16:00); what it's like to experience the area, and why it's known as "Mars on Earth" (26:00); what travelers can do there, and what it's like for Mark to live in Chile (36:30).

    Mark Johanson (@markonthemap) is an American journalist and travel writer based in Santiago, Chile. His first book is Mars on Earth: Wanderings in the World’s Driest Desert.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  21. Why a chapter about "slum tourism" was edited out of The Vagabond's Way (with Chloe Cooper Jones)

    56 minSeason 6 · Episode 254

    “Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones In this episode …

    Show notes

    “Travel does not require leaving your city or state or country, but it does require leaving your comfort zone. And that can happen a block or two away from where you live.” –Chloe Cooper Jones

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Chloe talk about why a section about “slum tourism” was cut out of Rolf’s newest book The Vagabond’s Way (2:30); how so much of what we talk about when we talk about travel has industrialized middle-class presumptions (7:30); the motivations and ethical considerations that underpin seeking out disadvantaged neighborhoods as a traveler (15:00); how preconceived narratives and “cultural extraction” often motivates people’s experience in a city, in ways that do not always benefit the city (25:00); what “dark tourism” and “voluntourism” are, and what the ethical ramifications are for travelers (32:00); and the difference between articulating ideals, and the work of acting on those ideals (45:00).

    Chloe Cooper Jones (@CCooperJones) is the author of Easy Beauty: A Memoir. She has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist in Feature Writing, and was the recipient of a Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant, as well as a Howard Foundation Grant from Brown University.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  22. Long-term travel 101: Matt Kepnes on how to slow down and save money on an extended global journey

    28 minSeason 6 · Episode 253

    “The most difficult part about traveling the world isn’t actually the logistics of a trip—it’s finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about …

    Show notes

    “The most difficult part about traveling the world isn’t actually the logistics of a trip—it’s finding the courage to go in the first place.” —Matt Kepnes

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how his travel style has changed over the years, and how fears affect people’s travels (1:00); strategies for saving money on the road (10:30); and strategies for finding activities on the road, and where to start a long-term journey (19:30).

    Matt Kepnes (@nomadicmatt), commonly known as “Nomadic Matt,” is a travel blogger and the New York Times bestselling author of Travel the World on $75 a Day and Ten Years a Nomad.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  23. Travel memoir lab: On blending travel narrative with a broader memoiristic life-narrative

    37 minSeason 6 · Episode 252

    “We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk …

    Show notes

    “We do a lot of writing alone, in our own space. But writing is not a solitary practice. The business of writing requires a community.” –Angelique Stevens

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Angelique talk about what her writing life is like in the decade since she first took Rolf’s Paris class, with the ambition of becoming a travel writer, and how her travel book transformed into something different (2:00); how Angelique gave herself permission to write about herself in an honest way, and what craft lessons have helped her writing (8:00); and Angelique’s reading habits as a writer, her writing process, and how she came to think of herself as a writer (23:00).

    Angelique Stevens‘ is creative writing professor whose nonfiction has been published in Best American Essays two years in a row (2022, edited by Alexander Chee and 2023 edited by Vivian Gornick), Granta, LitHub, The New England Review, and a number of anthologies.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  24. How a journey on the Hippie Trail changed Rick Steves' life (and influenced Rolf's travels too)

    44 minSeason 6 · Episode 251

    “Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick …

    Show notes

    “Anybody with curiosity and wanderlust can have their own Hippie Trail. They just need to get away from home, embrace the world, and have an adventure.” –Rick Steves

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Rick talk about Rick’s 1990s book Asia Through the Back Door, and how Rick recently rediscovered the old Asia travel journals he kept as a young man (2:30); how Rick prepared for the journey in the era before there were many guidebooks to the regions he was headed (9:30); what the experience of travel was like for Rick and his friend Gene on the Hippie Trail, including spiritual experiences (18:00); how travel can expand your sense of community, and diversify your sense for what wealth and poverty is (28:00); Rick’s first experience of smoking hash on the Hippie Trail, and how it gave him an appreciation for the joy of travel (34:00); and what lessons Rick brought home from the experience (39:00).

    Rick Steves (@ricksteveseurope) is a travel expert, author, and TV host who specializes in Europe. His newest book is On the Hippie Trail: Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  25. A travel writers' Super Bowl special: Pico Iyer and Rolf discuss NFL football from the global perspective

    39 minSeason 6 · Episode 250

    “My life has often forced me to watch the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico …

    Show notes

    “My life has often forced me to watch the Super Bowl in unusual circumstances. The first Super Bowl found me in boarding school in England, huddled under my bedclothes with an illegal transistor radio.” –Pico Iyer

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about the novelty of two travel writers talking about the Super Bowl, and Pico’s NFL fandom (4:00); how sports can be a therapeutic diversion from the more serious aspects of life, and which players are Rolf and Pico’s all-time favorites (13:00); Pico and Rolf’s old articles for Sports Illustrated, and how narratives attach themselves to sporting contests (21:00); and what Pico’s plan and predication is for the 2025 Super Bowl (32:30).

    Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence.

    Notable Links:

    NFL football links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  26. Pico Iyer on how solitude, stillness, and silence play an essential counterbalance to the traveling life

    55 minSeason 6 · Episode 249

    “In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they’re in the same room.” –Pico Iyer In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced …

    Show notes

    “In solitude, I often feel closer to the people I care for than when they’re in the same room.” –Pico Iyer

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Pico talk about how the best travels are often counterbalanced with a kind of stillness, in which one can find one’s “best self” (3:00); Pico’s decades-long experiences with monks in a California monastery, the benefits of a “childlike attitude” toward life, and how “fire” can be a metaphor for spiritual life (12:00); how Pico’s solitude is informed by, and in conversation with, nature (22:00); Pico’s engaged relationship with spiritual communities, even though he is not religious (30:00); the “counterculture” spiritual tradition that grew up around Big Sur, California, and the power of longing (39:00); and how solitude can be a gateway to other people (47:00).

    Pico Iyer (@PicoIyer) is a novelist, essayist, and author. His newest book is Aflame: Learning from Silence.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  27. Life changing travel experiences: Memories of traveling to Syria, 25 years on (with Ari Shaffir)

    1 h 23 minSeason 6 · Episode 248

    “Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that …

    Show notes

    “Syria is a mix of everything. There are multiple Christian cultures, multiple Muslim cultures, and multiple languages. It’s the crossroads of the world. It made for some of my best travel memories from that time of my life.” —Rolf Potts

    In this episode of Deviate (which was remixed from an episode of Ari Shaffir’s You Be Trippin’ podcast), Rolf and Ari talk about when and why Rolf traveled to Syria back in the day, and what it was like when he got there (3:30); his experience in staying in a Christian monastery in the mountains outside of Damascus (18:30); Rolf’s journey to the Tigris River, his experience with the Kurds he met in a Syria-Turkey border town, and the types of food on offer in Syria (28:30); Rolf’s enjoyable experience of watching the movie Con Air on a long-distance bus in Syria, and his experience of going to a Sudanese refugee church in Damascus (37:00); Rolf’s experience of accepting hospitality from Syrian Kurds, the experience of eavesdropping on American music at an Aleppo hotel, and what it’s like to watch American movies in other countries (47:00); old travel clothing and gear that Rolf still uses 25 years on, and Rolf’s travel tips and next destinations (1:07:00).

    Ari Shaffir (@AriShaffir) is a comedian, writer, podcaster, and actor. He is the host of theYou Be Trippin’ podcast,. His latest comedy special, JEW, is available on YouTube.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  28. Travel memoir lab: How to fast-track your travel book by working with a hybrid publisher

    1 h 2 minSeason 6 · Episode 247

    “In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised …

    Show notes

    “In El Salvador, I dropped $5 out of my pocket at the border, and some guy came running up to me. At the beginning of the trip I would have been surprised by that. But by that point I would have been surprised if it didn’t happen.” —Matt Savino

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Matt talk about how the first version of his travel book was way too long, and what he ended up editing out (6:00); the origins of Matt’s Central America road trip, why he ended up turning it into a book, and how he ended up taking Rolf’s Paris class (12:00); how Matt’s “Spreadsheet of Pain” helped him edit his book down to manageable size, and how historical research helped his narrative (17:00); how he wrote about a road trip that didn’t actually reach its objective, and how he tried to model his narrative on Bill Bryson’s writing (26:00); how Matt used a hybrid publisher to get his travel book into the world in two years (31:00); the challenges, idiosyncrasies, and creative joys that come with creating a hybrid published book (39:00); how AI bots determined that Matt had “plagiarized” what turned out to be his own book (54:00); and Matt’s advice for people interested in hybrid publishing (60:30).

    Matt Savino (@ushuaia_or_bust) is the author of Land Without a Continent: A Road Trip through Mexico and Central America. He can be contacted via his website.

    Notable Links:

    Authors, books, and agents mentioned:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  29. HoneyTrek: A case study in making a full-time living as travel influencers and content creators

    43 minSeason 6 · Episode 246

    “When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Ann Howard In …

    Show notes

    “When we got into this, we didn’t know how to make videos. That’s a skill we’ve had to learn, because the industry has changed so much, from photos to videos. We are still learning all the time.” —Ann Howard

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf, Mike, Ann and Kiki talk about they got started traveling as a couple, how they made it affordable, and how they made the transition into the world of content creation (2:15); how to navigate recording and sharing travel experiences that go wrong, including relationship dynamics (9:30); how to make travel “sustainable” in the personal and creative sense of the word (17:00); the advantages of having a “niche” as an influencer, and how sponsored travel works (24:30); and what makes travel influencers stand out from others, and the importance of learning new skills (34:00).

    Mike & Anne Howard are on The World’s Longest Honeymoon, traveling for the last 13 years through 80 countries across all 7 continents. They have written and photographed a National Geographic book on couples adventure travel, Ultimate Journeys for Two, as well as the glamping guidebook, Comfortably Wild.

    Notable Links:

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

  30. Live from Bali: How tourists, influencers, and nomads transform destinations (for good and for bad)

    39 minSeason 6 · Episode 245

    “Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of …

    Show notes

    “Influencers are forever reinforcing the same images. They’re spending no time in the actual place, other than the requisite time to take the photo. From the local community’s point of view, these kinds of tourists bring very little value.” –Stuart McDonald

    In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Stuart talk about why Stuart chose to make his office in West Bali, and why South Bali has developed something of a bad reputation in terms of over-tourism (2:30); the mythos of Bali, how it became a “dreamscape” in the Western consciousness, and how it has changed in recent years (6:30); why certain areas in Bali become over-touristed, and how it has recently been affected by “influencers” (18:00); how black magic and ghosts are part of the belief systems of Balinese, yet few travelers ascertain this (24:00); and how much social-media travel content leaves out essential cultural context (31:00).

    Stuart McDonald (@travelfishery) is the co-founder of Travelfish.org, a travel planning website covering Southeast Asia, which he launched in 2014. He has been traveling in that part of the world since 1993, and living there since 1997.

    Notable Links:

    This episode of Deviate is also brought to you by AirTreks, an industry leader in multi-stop international travel. If you’ve ever planned a trip with multiple stops, you know that finding the right flights can be difficult. Between balancing travel logistics and cost, it often becomes impossible to build an itinerary that matches your travel goals. AirTreks is a distributed travel company with employees working from all corners of the world to help with your flight planning, specializing in complex routes with up to 25 stops. The AirTreks website offers suggested pre-planned travel itineraries to help you get started, but can customize to fit your journey.

    The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.

    Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].

These are the latest 40 of 238 episodes. You’ll find older episodes in the podcast’s feed.

Similar podcasts

More Society & Culture podcasts
Is this your podcast?

Confirm it with an entry in your feed: you get a code here, add it as podcast:txt to the channel of your feed, and we check it. Your podcast is then shown as “verified” on SoundNode.

Popular genres

PopOldiesHip HopRock80sSchlagerNewsAlternativeDanceMetalTechno90sElectroHouse

Settings

Display

Language

DeutschEnglishEspañolFrançaisPortuguês

Decides which stations you see first on the home page.

History

Recently played stations and episodes and your latest searches are only stored in this browser.

Notifications

A short notice when a podcast you follow has a new episode. Turn off single podcasts with the bell on their page.

Account

Save favorites – in the app and on the website.

App StoreGoogle PlayAmazon Fire TVSonos

Keyboard shortcuts

/
Open search
Space
Play or pause
← →
In the player: back 15 s, forward 30 s (episodes) · in a row: next tile
↑ ↓
In a row: target within the tile
Home / End
In a row: first or last tile
Esc
Close window or menu
?
This overview
Now playing

Go to station page

Play next

    Add episodes with “Play next” – they play after the current episode.