Proof Over Precedent
- Episodes
- 79
- Released
- weekly
- Latest episode
- Nov 9, 2026
About the podcast
The Access to Justice Lab at Harvard Law School discusses the work of bringing credible evidence to lawyers, judges, and decision makers, to transform the U.S. justice system into an evidence-based field. We bring you weekly one-on-one interviews with experts in the area of access to justice -- researchers, lawyers, professors, law students, data analysts, research participants, and anyone who has an interesting role in this growing area.
Episodes 79
Episode 75: Navigating Justice Amid Consumer Contract Complexities
Doing business may mean doing risky business when it comes to sharing data. But consumers may not realize or notice the cost of paying for practices like price discrimination with their data. In this week's …
Show notes
Doing business may mean doing risky business when it comes to sharing data. But consumers may not realize or notice the cost of paying for practices like price discrimination with their data. In this week's episode of Proof Over Precedent, NYU Law Professor Oren Bar-Gill discusses how consumer misperceptions and inattention support the status quo of complexity amid consumer contracts. He also shares the surprising role AI could play in supporting consumers, though not without backlash.Episode 74: The Path to an Independent, Accessible, and Accountable Judiciary
How to lose public trust in a few easy steps: Take a trusted branch of government, give it the heady authority to maintain independence apart from public oversight, and limit access to records that would offer …
Show notes
How to lose public trust in a few easy steps: Take a trusted branch of government, give it the heady authority to maintain independence apart from public oversight, and limit access to records that would offer accountability. The lack of transparency would crack the foundation of any well-intentioned agency. This week's Proof Over Precedent episode addresses the state of the judiciary that has led to a decline in public trust and a call for stronger transparency requirements.Episode 73: Does Modernizing PACER Mean Overlooking Pro Se Litigants?
When law students have difficulty navigating the federal court records platform PACER, it's time to incorporate universal design. That's the suggested solution in this week's Proof Over Precedent episode. It's …
Show notes
When law students have difficulty navigating the federal court records platform PACER, it's time to incorporate universal design. That's the suggested solution in this week's Proof Over Precedent episode. It's also a warning for the Case Modernization Effort currently underway: Pro se litigants represent a sizeable population using PACER, but their user experience has been overlooked in favor of representing the majority user experience by lawyers and court administrators. The result, thus far, has been problematic with a court records system that has become unwieldy in scale and unusable by those most in need of understanding it.Episode 72: Building Judiciary Trust Through Open Court Data
The seven-year-old Open Government Data Act has supported accessible, and useable, data from federal agencies, but it did not extend to the judiciary. This week's Proof Over Precedent episode discusses the …
Show notes
The seven-year-old Open Government Data Act has supported accessible, and useable, data from federal agencies, but it did not extend to the judiciary. This week's Proof Over Precedent episode discusses the massive amounts of data in federal, and particularly state, courts that serve as a missed opportunity to provide transparency, notice court trends, and foster collaboration, all in the name of building trust.Episode 71: When and How to Study Attorney Influence in Asylum Cases
It helps to have a lawyer in court, no question. But in immigration court, where the vast majority of individuals are self-representing and not enough immigration lawyers exist to represent them all anyway, is …
Show notes
It helps to have a lawyer in court, no question. But in immigration court, where the vast majority of individuals are self-representing and not enough immigration lawyers exist to represent them all anyway, is there a point in asylum proceedings where an attorney could be most effective at supporting due process for clients?Episode 70: Exploring a Lawyer's Impact on Immigration Proceedings
No counsel, worse outcomes in immigration proceedings? This week on Proof Over Precedent, Access to Justice Lab Faculty Director and occasional podcast host Jim Greiner interviewed two Vera Institute of Justice …
Show notes
No counsel, worse outcomes in immigration proceedings? This week on Proof Over Precedent, Access to Justice Lab Faculty Director and occasional podcast host Jim Greiner interviewed two Vera Institute of Justice researchers, Jacquelyn Pavilon and Neil Agrawal, about their study measuring the effect of a lawyer in detained 240 removal proceedings in Chicago Immigration Court. Did individuals with legal representation see a greater likelihood of relief, temporary relief, or bond hearings and releases than those without lawyers? The discussion follows both research methodology and adherence to due process.Episode 69: Study Interrupted—In-Person v. Remote Hearing Modalities
We like to use Proof Over Precedent as a platform to highlight our evidence-based findings, as well as others' studies, from randomized control trials in the field of law. This is not one of those times. In …
Show notes
We like to use Proof Over Precedent as a platform to highlight our evidence-based findings, as well as others' studies, from randomized control trials in the field of law. This is not one of those times. In this week's episode, Professor Jim Greiner talks with the A2J Lab researcher and data analyst who spent years working on our Online Courts study about the disappointment, frustration, and lessons learned from a flawed RCT. They still managed to glean a takeaway from comparing remote and in-person hearings for self-represented litigants in family court.Episode 68: Evaluating Procedural Fairness in Court and on Zoom
Self-represented litigants primarily measure procedural justice by whether they had a voice, were listened to, and were treated fairly in court. Do these basic marks of overall satisfaction differ between the …
Show notes
Self-represented litigants primarily measure procedural justice by whether they had a voice, were listened to, and were treated fairly in court. Do these basic marks of overall satisfaction differ between the mode in which the hearing took place though? This week's Proof Over Precedent episode features an interview with justice reform consultant Emily LaGratta and Nathanael Player, former director of the Utah State Court Self-Help Center, about a study looking at litigants' perception of fairness in their respective experiences with either remote or in-person court.Are Death-Qualified Juries Qualified?
Jury selection should aim for a balanced and thoughtful panel; in capital cases, that balance is further underscored. This week's "Student Voices" post argues that "death-qualifying juries"--the practice of …
Show notes
Jury selection should aim for a balanced and thoughtful panel; in capital cases, that balance is further underscored. This week's "Student Voices" post argues that "death-qualifying juries"--the practice of excluding jurors who oppose the death penalty--disrupts that balance. Those constitutional guarantees of impartiality, equality, and reliability? Not so ensured with practice. Reform options, however, are not so simple.Episode 67: Capital Jury Selection's Hidden Biases
Serving as a juror fulfills one's civic duty to ensure a system of checks and balances in the U.S. In capital cases, however, "death qualification" ensures that prospective jurors opposed to the death penalty …
Show notes
Serving as a juror fulfills one's civic duty to ensure a system of checks and balances in the U.S. In capital cases, however, "death qualification" ensures that prospective jurors opposed to the death penalty will not have the opportunity to perform this civic duty. This week's Proof Over Precedent episode features a "Student Voices" interview with Megan Byrne of the ACLU's Capital Punishment Project to discuss the shortcomings of less diverse juries due to race, gender, and religious differences. It also looks at a capital case in Kansas in which the courts examined the problems associated with death qualification and the death penalty overall.Episode 66: Heirs' Property's Fragile Hold on Land Ownership and Justice
Just because an individual may own property, does not guarantee that the person may keep that property—that’s the warning stemming from this week's podcast episode featuring an interview with Dr. Kara Woods …
Show notes
Just because an individual may own property, does not guarantee that the person may keep that property—that’s the warning stemming from this week's podcast episode featuring an interview with Dr. Kara Woods, research analyst at Alcorn State University’s National Policy Research Center. Issues may arise from heirs property—co-owned land in which the name of the original, and now deceased, owner is still on the deed. Land loss due to heirs property issues affects groups disproportionately by race and class, and the policy protections against it are inconsistent across states. The ensuing legal hurdles mark a barrier that some families cannot overcome. One takeaway: Communicate with your family members!Episode 65: Access vs. Efficiency—Supreme Court Weighs Frivolous Filings
"Martinizing", the controversial Supreme Court practice of denying court fee waivers for indigent litigants, is meant to reduce frivolous filings, but at what cost? This episode looks at the January 2026 Howell …
Show notes
"Martinizing", the controversial Supreme Court practice of denying court fee waivers for indigent litigants, is meant to reduce frivolous filings, but at what cost? This episode looks at the January 2026 Howell order in which Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson was the sole dissenting voice against Martinizing indigent prisoners. Her argument reignites the perspective that access to justice and the potential for future meritorious claims should outweigh workload relief.Episode 64: Can AI Resolve Brazil's Judicial Backlog?
More than 100 million pending cases await Brazil courts, so it may not be surprising that the country's Supreme Court Justice has a reportedly rosy view of AI in the court system, especially in time-sensitive …
Show notes
More than 100 million pending cases await Brazil courts, so it may not be surprising that the country's Supreme Court Justice has a reportedly rosy view of AI in the court system, especially in time-sensitive civil and criminal matters. The potential for AI to help alleviate the backlog and potentially bring more balance and less bias may brush over the possible system errors and human rubber-stamping that come with it. This "Student Voices" podcast discusses Brazil's use of AI in the court system and the areas ripe for more scrutiny--evaluations through RCTs and metric-based learning models.Episode 63: Texas Two-Step Bankruptcy--Corporate Restructuring or Legal Loophole?
The Texas Two-Step is a fairly simple dance, but in the world of corporate bankruptcy, it's the name of a sophisticated maneuver that some profitable companies employ to stop mass tort liabilities and limit the …
Show notes
The Texas Two-Step is a fairly simple dance, but in the world of corporate bankruptcy, it's the name of a sophisticated maneuver that some profitable companies employ to stop mass tort liabilities and limit the settlements due to victims. It splits a company and strategically divides its assets and liabilities. In this manner, the companies win and the tort victims, by comparison, lose. But there may be reason for cautious optimism. Proof Over Precedent interviews bankruptcy scholar and law professor Melissa Jacoby about the practice, the reasons courts allow it, and the avenues under consideration for making bankruptcy a more just and exceptional option for corporations.Episode 62: Navigating Immigration Law Post-Trump v. CASA
Trump v. CASA did not directly address immigration and birthright citizenship when it ruled against universal injunctions, and yet...The aftermath of the ruling left the immigration law landscape in a tailspin …
Show notes
Trump v. CASA did not directly address immigration and birthright citizenship when it ruled against universal injunctions, and yet...The aftermath of the ruling left the immigration law landscape in a tailspin. This week's Proof Over Precedent episode interviews Katie Taylor, Legal Director of the Neighbors Immigration Clinic (Lexington, KY), where the practice has shifted its role now that the state houses eight immigration detention centers. She provides a frontline view of the scramble that immigrants and the clinics supporting them face without nationwide relief.Episode 61: The Promise and Pitfalls of Active Judging
Pro se litigants have reason to hope for a better civil courtroom experience with active judging. If done right, this reform promises more clarity and mercy for those unfamiliar with legal procedures, and …
Show notes
Pro se litigants have reason to hope for a better civil courtroom experience with active judging. If done right, this reform promises more clarity and mercy for those unfamiliar with legal procedures, and better fact-finding and balanced evidence for judges overseeing the cases. This week's Proof Over Precedent episode discusses the potential for reform, what's holding judges back from fully adopting it, and the procedural and legislative changes necessary to support both judges and pro se litigants in fairer, more efficient civil hearings.Episode 60: Beyond Gideon—Rethinking Access to Justice
Is it time for an inquisitorial legal system? How about a redesigned "lawyer-less" court? This isn't the wild west of the legal world, but rather a lively discussion among three access to justice advocates on …
Show notes
Is it time for an inquisitorial legal system? How about a redesigned "lawyer-less" court? This isn't the wild west of the legal world, but rather a lively discussion among three access to justice advocates on the merits–or rather shortcomings–of a push for a civil right to counsel and possible alternatives to closing the access to justice gap. Join Law Professor Benjamin Barton (University of Tennessee), The Honorable Stephanos Bibas of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, and our own A2J Lab director and Harvard Law School Professor Jim Greiner in this week's Proof Over Precedent episode.Episode 59: Legal Aid on the Front Line of Immigration
When it comes to immigration, the legal aid sector has pivoted its resources from affirmative relief for immigrants to defense deportation and detention center intakes. In this "Student Voices" podcast, the …
Show notes
When it comes to immigration, the legal aid sector has pivoted its resources from affirmative relief for immigrants to defense deportation and detention center intakes. In this "Student Voices" podcast, the discussion between fellow Harvard Law School J.D. candidates Andrew Garcia and Emily Irigoyen, the latter of whom co-leads the Harvard Immigration Project, ranges from the fallout of this shift in immigration legal aid resources to the shortcomings of typical immigration proceedings and the need for family preparedness planning.Episode 58: Labor Innovations Bridge Access-to-Justice Gap for Immigrants
Labor movements have had to get creative when it comes to labor justice for immigrant workers. That's where worker centers fill the niche not covered by traditional labor unions. In this Proof Over Precedent …
Show notes
Labor movements have had to get creative when it comes to labor justice for immigrant workers. That's where worker centers fill the niche not covered by traditional labor unions. In this Proof Over Precedent episode, HLS Professor Sharon Block, executive director of the Center for Labor and a Just Economy, discusses the difference between the two labor organizations, the future of the two, and the vital role collective action plays in advocating for justice.Episode 57: Libraries and AI—Partners for Accessible Justice?
In this "Student Voices" episode, HLS student Grace Gao interviews Ari Scourtas, Product and Research Manager of the Library Innovation Lab at Harvard Law School, about making AI legal tools accessible for …
Show notes
In this "Student Voices" episode, HLS student Grace Gao interviews Ari Scourtas, Product and Research Manager of the Library Innovation Lab at Harvard Law School, about making AI legal tools accessible for people facing digital barriers. The discussion covers legal AI's risks and opportunities for self representation and the expanding role libraries play in bridging the knowledge gap around AI.Episode 56: The Conflicting Sides of Police Procedural Protections
This bonus episode of Proof Over Precedent looks at the access to justice issues around the Law Enforcement Officer Bill of Rights (LEOBR) statutes and contract provisions that grant police officers enhanced …
Show notes
This bonus episode of Proof Over Precedent looks at the access to justice issues around the Law Enforcement Officer Bill of Rights (LEOBR) statutes and contract provisions that grant police officers enhanced procedural protections during internal misconduct investigations. At odds are the tensions between public accountability and officers’ claims of needing protection from false accusations. HLS student Strong Ma proposes a randomized controlled trial to study the effects on investigation outcomes, civil litigation, and perceived fairness.Episode 55: Navigating Workplace Justice Through an AI Lens
Workplace justice issues take center stage in this Proof Over Precedent "student voices" episode focused on Reclamo AI, an AI chatbot, developed to help workers--especially immigrant communities -- address wage …
Show notes
Workplace justice issues take center stage in this Proof Over Precedent "student voices" episode focused on Reclamo AI, an AI chatbot, developed to help workers--especially immigrant communities -- address wage theft and find local advocates. Joshua Medina, legal director for Pro Bono Net's JusticiaLab, shares insight on the transformation of the tool, including its efforts to protect user privacy and to avoid unauthorized practice of law.Episode 54: Will Clearing a Criminal Record Lead to Happiness (and Housing)?
"My criminal record doesn't reflect who I am anymore." This sentiment overwhelmingly topped the list of reasons why expungement study participants wanted to clear their record that it seemed plausible to …
Show notes
"My criminal record doesn't reflect who I am anymore." This sentiment overwhelmingly topped the list of reasons why expungement study participants wanted to clear their record that it seemed plausible to predict that clearing one's criminal record would lead to higher levels of life satisfaction. Likewise, it did not seem far-fetched to assume individuals without a criminal record would fare better in obtaining housing than those with one. In both cases though, the A2J Lab and Kansas Legal Services found surprising results to refute these assumptions.Episode 53: Expungement Expectations vs. Reality in Employment
The A2J Lab's randomized control trial on expungement examined the uptake and obstacles of criminal record clearing while also looking into its effect on various socio-economic outcomes. This week's Proof Over …
Show notes
The A2J Lab's randomized control trial on expungement examined the uptake and obstacles of criminal record clearing while also looking into its effect on various socio-economic outcomes. This week's Proof Over Precedent episode gathers study researchers to discuss the "surprising and depressing" findings on expungement's effect on employment. They also dive into explanations for the stark difference between individuals' optimism and reality in the experiment.Episode 52: Study Exposes Complex Criminal Record Clearing Process
Is the form-filling expungement process as easy for unrepresented individuals as some believe? In this week's Proof Over Precedent episode, host Jim Greiner welcomes the A2J Lab team involved in our …
Show notes
Is the form-filling expungement process as easy for unrepresented individuals as some believe? In this week's Proof Over Precedent episode, host Jim Greiner welcomes the A2J Lab team involved in our long-running Kansas-based study looking at the current record-clearing process and its obstacles. The results offer clear evidence for what it takes for a successful expungement.Episode 51: How Lawyers and Rental Assistance Impact Eviction Cases
Facing an eviction, a tenant has to decide if the added expense of an attorney is worth it for the possibility of avoiding an eviction judgment. In a discussion of a randomized controlled trial outside the A2J …
Show notes
Facing an eviction, a tenant has to decide if the added expense of an attorney is worth it for the possibility of avoiding an eviction judgment. In a discussion of a randomized controlled trial outside the A2J Lab, Faculty Director Jim Greiner talks with economists Aviv Caspi and Charlie Rafkin about when, why, and whether lawyers make a difference in evictions cases. The study coincided with a government emergency housing fund that expired during the RCT, which helped answer how lawyers can best make a difference as well.Episode 50: Pro Se Litigants, AI, and the Future of Legal Assistance
State bar associations typically file more UPL complaints than consumers. Given the intended aim of protecting consumers, UPL may actually be serving more as an obstacle and less as a protection for consumers …
Show notes
State bar associations typically file more UPL complaints than consumers. Given the intended aim of protecting consumers, UPL may actually be serving more as an obstacle and less as a protection for consumers using generative AI in the legal space. That's the argument Wake Forest Law Professor and UPL expert Ellen Murphy makes in the latest Proof Over Precedent episode, where she identifies the legal industry's progress with AI regulation by state and how AI and human counseling may combine to be the strongest access-to-justice resource.Episode 49: AI and the Future of Legal Aid—Navigating Unauthorized Practice
The low cost and accessibility of AI make it a potential game changer for pro se litigation and the future of affordable legal aid. But with the patchwork of state unauthorized practice of law (UPL) rules and …
Show notes
The low cost and accessibility of AI make it a potential game changer for pro se litigation and the future of affordable legal aid. But with the patchwork of state unauthorized practice of law (UPL) rules and no court resolution on AI's UPL liability, it also faces an uncertain future as a legal tool. HLS students tackle the issue in the latest Proof Over Precedent and distinguish between legal information and legal advice—a key to general-purpose AI's future in law.Episode 48: Legal Evolution from Auto Clubs to Access Barriers
When the organized bar association faced financial strain during the Depression, it cracked down on low-cost legal service providers via auto clubs like AAA, contributing to today's access-to-justice gap. In …
Show notes
When the organized bar association faced financial strain during the Depression, it cracked down on low-cost legal service providers via auto clubs like AAA, contributing to today's access-to-justice gap. In this "How did we get here?"-style episode, HLS student Andrew Reed interviews Stanford Professor Nora Freeman Engstrom and University of Chicago Fellow James Stone about their research and the "revolution" taking place in many states to reform the legal profession.Episode 48: Legal Evolution from Auto Clubs to Access Barriers
When the organized bar association faced financial strain during the Depression, it cracked down on low-cost legal service providers via auto clubs like AAA, contributing to today's access-to-justice gap. In …
Show notes
When the organized bar association faced financial strain during the Depression, it cracked down on low-cost legal service providers via auto clubs like AAA, contributing to today's access-to-justice gap. In this "How did we get here?"-style episode, HLS student Andrew Reed interviews Stanford Professor Nora Freeman Engstrom and University of Chicago Fellow James Stone about their research and the "revolution" taking place in many states to reform the legal profession.
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