The Westminster Tradition
- Episodes
- 87
- Released
- every two weeks
- Latest episode
- Nov 9, 2026
About the podcast
Unpacking lessons for the public service, starting with the Robodebt Royal Commission.
In 2019, after three years, Robodebt was found to be unlawful. The Royal Commission process found it was also immoral and wildly inaccurate. Ultimately the Australian Government was forced to pay $1.8bn back to more than 470,000 Australians. In this podcast we dive deep into public policy failures like Robodebt and the British Post Office scandal - how they start, why they're hard to stop, and the public service lessons we shouldn't forget.
Episodes 87
🗑️🤖 “You govern in prose”: AI slop and the end of friction 🤖🗑️
Like every conference in the land, we’re talking about AI.But this episode isn’t about public servants using it. It’s about citizens using it at you. We start from Sam Freedman’s Drowning in slop, Tom …
Show notes
Like every conference in the land, we’re talking about AI.
But this episode isn’t about public servants using it. It’s about citizens using it at you. We start from Sam Freedman’s Drowning in slop, Tom Loosemore’s reply The end to governing in prose, and the Fair Work Commission’s new rules on AI in cases.
We look at what’s breaking: the volume, the made-up case law, and a single missed bin that turns into four legal claims.
Danielle asks whether some of the spike is people finally getting access to review rights they were always shut out of.
Then we turn to Loosemore’s argument that the effort of claiming has quietly been doing the rationing, and that AI just removed it. We finish with what you might actually do, from fees and length limits to the FWC’s surprisingly excellent suggested prompts.
Underneath all of it is an old question that is suddenly urgent: how does the state ration? The Soviets queued and the Brits used forms. Australia, as Danielle points out, has mostly preferred that everyone wins a prize. AI is about to force the choice into the open.
Next episode: the Ombudsman’s report on the aged care assessment algorithm.
Apologies to Pia Andrews, whose Rules as Code eluded Caroline on air.
📄 Sam Freedman, Drowning in slop, October 2026
📄 Tom Loosemore, The end to governing in prose, October 2026
📄 Fair Work Commission seeks user-pays price in flaky slop, February 2026Outro from @aarongoldyboy
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!🔥🤫 “A deal is a deal is a deal”: Operation Richmond, Part 2 🤫🔥
In Part 1, a secret deal was struck in a hotel room and walked into Cabinet as a “UFU proposal”. In Part 2, the deal has to survive contact with everyone who wasn’t in the room.We start at the Fair Work …
Show notes
In Part 1, a secret deal was struck in a hotel room and walked into Cabinet as a “UFU proposal”. In Part 2, the deal has to survive contact with everyone who wasn’t in the room.
We start at the Fair Work Commission, where the “independent umpire” turns out to have far less power than everyone claimed, and where keeping Peter Marshall on side means 381 text messages in four months. We follow the secret through a minister’s resignation, a sacked CFA Board, a federal law change that kills the CFA agreement anyway, and two more years of pressure on the MFB Board, which is never told where the agreement came from. Along the way: what happens when a government caught between a union and its own statutory boards pushes on the side it can push, a letter of comfort that comforted nobody, and a lawyer dropped because “Peter was like literally losing his mind”.
Then we land on IBAC’s verdict on Tony Bates and Chris Eccles, Danielle’s closing argument for the defence, and a genuine disagreement among us about whether IBAC was too harsh.
Our conclusion: the most damaging thing wasn’t the original deal. It was a secret nobody went back to retest, which handed leverage to the one person outside government who knew the truth. As IBAC notes, some senior members of government even suspected Marshall had something over the Premier.
Several of you asked what happened to the CFA agreement. It never went to a vote. CFA career firefighters stayed on their expired 2010 agreement until 1 July 2020, when they moved to the new Fire Rescue Victoria. It appears FRV still runs former CFA and MFB staff under different terms within a single interim agreement.
📄 IBAC, Operation Richmond special report, August 2026
Corrections: The federal government that amended the Fair Work Act to protect volunteers in August 2016 was the Turnbull government, not the Morrison government. Marshall’s April 2018 “the truth will come out” radio interview was about the MFB appointing a UK candidate as CEO, whom he called a union-buster. Fire Rescue Victoria didn’t exist until 2020, and the Canadian candidate was Marshall’s preferred pick. And Bates called the CFA “clowns” in three texts, not two.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!🔥🤝 “Handshake has occurred”: Operation Richmond, Part 1 🤝🔥
In 2016, the Andrews government settled a bitter, years-long dispute with the firefighters’ union in a hotel room, then spent the next two years pretending it hadn’t.In August, Victoria’s anti-corruption …
Show notes
In 2016, the Andrews government settled a bitter, years-long dispute with the firefighters’ union in a hotel room, then spent the next two years pretending it hadn’t.
In August, Victoria’s anti-corruption commission IBAC tabled its special report on Operation Richmond. It made no findings of corrupt conduct and found no evidence for the blackmail allegation that started the investigation.
But most of its 120 pages are about something else: what happens to public servants when a Premier wants a problem fixed, and fixed quietly.
In Part 1 we follow Tony Bates, nine weeks into a Deputy Secretary job at DPC, as he’s told to keep it “very tight”. We cover the secret negotiations, the champagne photo, the staged handover of a “UFU proposal” that wasn’t really a union proposal, and the Cabinet submission written by the people who negotiated the deal.
Along the way:
- why Victoria’s fire services had a governance problem before any of this started
- what a 400-page log of claims looks like
- Treasury being told to “facilitate agreement today not spear it”,
- and IBAC’s answer to the squish between serving the Premier and the Code of Conduct (“comply with both”). Is that answer any use in the room?
Next time: the Fair Work Commission, the long tail, and who ends up holding the secret.
📄 IBAC, Operation Richmond special report, August 2026.
Corrections: Women made up 2.9% of the CFA’s career firefighters (31 of 1,082), not 3.7% as we said on air. And Peter Marshall handed the “UFU proposal” to an advisor from the Premier’s office during his meeting with the Premier, not to the Premier himself.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!**Revisit** ☎️ The Hon Amanda Vanstone AO - Inside the Westminster Machine
We are reliably informed that when this episode dropped a current Cabinet minister rang The Hon Amanda Vanstone and congratulated her. That’s a good enough reason for us to republish this during our hiatus! …
Show notes
We are reliably informed that when this episode dropped a current Cabinet minister rang The Hon Amanda Vanstone and congratulated her. That’s a good enough reason for us to republish this during our hiatus! Note there’s also a follow up episode where we all chat about our takeaways from this episode.
****
Former Senator Amanda Vanstone offers a masterclass in ministerial leadership, delivering sharp insights from her 21-year political career that are as relevant today as they were during her time in Prime Minister Howard's Cabinet. Cutting through bureaucratic excuses with remarkable clarity, she reveals how effective ministers must take full responsibility while developing practical strategies to uncover what's really happening within their departments.
Vanstone's approach to ministerial oversight was refreshingly direct—phoning junior staff who prepared briefs rather than accepting sanitized information from senior executives, making unannounced visits to government-funded programs, and consistently asking "how does that work?" until satisfied with the answers. "You get what you inspect, not what you expect," she notes, emphasizing that accountability requires hands-on leadership.
Her frank discussion of major reforms like the creation of Centrelink highlights how structural change requires both political courage and practical problem-solving. When departments maintained separate offices but required them to be within walking distance, she asked the obvious question: "Why not put them together?" This common-sense approach characterized her leadership across Employment, Education, Justice and Immigration portfolios.
What stands out most powerfully is Vanstone's perspective on ministerial responsibility. "That's why ministers sign on the bottom line. That's why you get paid," she asserts, rejecting excuses about inherited problems or departmental advice. Her experiences with Immigration Department failures—including the wrongful deportation of Australian citizen Vivian Alvarez—taught her that when you find one serious problem, you must look deeper: "When a mouse runs out of your fridge, you think that's a mouse. When the second one comes a week later, you bring the fridge out and clean it out."
Ready for straight talk about how government really works? Listen now to learn why Amanda Vanstone believes we urgently need another National Commission of Audit and how effective ministers must balance scrutiny with support to get the best from public servants.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!**Revisit** 🏉 The Royal Commission we should have? The 2013 Essendon Football Club supplements scandal
You might like to get in the mood for AFL footy finals by revisiting this first episode of our three part series on the Essendon Footy club drug scandal! Meanwhile we will keep enjoying our late winter / early …
Show notes
You might like to get in the mood for AFL footy finals by revisiting this first episode of our three part series on the Essendon Footy club drug scandal! Meanwhile we will keep enjoying our late winter / early spring hiatus 😇
****
“Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015.
In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons for public servants from the Essendon Football Club supplement scandal in 2013.
In this episode, we talk about what happened at Essendon itself., including the dangers of charismatic new leaders, new brooms through an organisation, and a failure to take controls and risk management seriously.
Referenced in this episode- Ziggy Switkowski report into failures of governance at Essendon Football Club (May 2013)
- Dr Bruce Reid letter to Essendon Football Club about his concerns about the supplement regime (Jan 2012)
- Lindsay Tanner ‘Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal’
- The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day
Intro grab is Lindsay Tanner, Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal.
Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray and Emma Murray, The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day.This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!**Revisit** 🗳️ Election special 🗳️ Caretaker conventions, IGBs and some 🥳 vox pops 🥳
In honour of forthcoming Victorian and NSW elections, we are republishing this episode during our late winter hiatus. Enjoy!!****The starter's gun has gone on Australia's national elections for 2025 …
Show notes
In honour of forthcoming Victorian and NSW elections, we are republishing this episode during our late winter hiatus. Enjoy!!
****
The starter's gun has gone on Australia's national elections for 2025 and Parliament has been prorogued.
In this episode, former head of Cabinet Office and keeper of the Caretaker Conventions, Alison answers Caroline and Danielle's increasingly pointed questions, and we end with arguing about the importance of formatting.
Stay tuned to the end for some fabulous insider advice for managing caretaker period and elections as a public servant.
This episode is dedicated to the significant birthday of Sandy Pitcher, a public service legend (read more about her here).
Intro grab courtesy of the Hon Nat Cook MP, Minister for Human Services (SA).
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!🐊When the rains come: the gap between policy and delivery in remote Australia with Georgia Heath 🐊
Danielle talks with Georgia Heath from Yup Yup Labs about what becomes obvious when you design services from far away, and why remote communities expose the hidden assumptions baked into policy, technology and …
Show notes
Danielle talks with Georgia Heath from Yup Yup Labs about what becomes obvious when you design services from far away, and why remote communities expose the hidden assumptions baked into policy, technology and “digital by default”.
We also dig into who gets excluded when the public service recruits narrowly, and what changes when we treat people with lived experience as genuine partners with real power.
Other topics include:
• what remoteness reveals about telecommunications, emergencies and climate impacts
• where telehealth helps and where it breaks, including dental care and wet season realities
• what strong outreach models look like, including the Deadly Ears ear health approach
• why older non-university pathways created real mobility and better service design
• how class, schooling and workplace norms shape who gets into decision-making rooms
• what happens when job services misread capability and drain confidence
• how trauma-informed management, explicit rules and timely feedback lift performance
• why plain English writing improves access, trust and policy outcomes.This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!🧪🧮 We CAN test big policy ideas without slowing government down: Eleanor Williams from the Australian Centre for Evaluation 🧮🧪
We talk with Eleanor Williams from the Australian Centre for Evaluation about making evaluation fast, rigorous, and genuinely useful for public service decisions. We move from a 40,000-person employment …
Show notes
We talk with Eleanor Williams from the Australian Centre for Evaluation about making evaluation fast, rigorous, and genuinely useful for public service decisions. We move from a 40,000-person employment services RCT to the practical steps that make testing possible, then unpack why transparency and mixed methods matter when the stakes are high. Along the way we discuss:
- turning a mutual obligation debate into a 'fact question' through a large three-arm randomised controlled trial
- why a null result can be a powerful policy signal
- the enablers that make responsive RCTs feasible, from systems to leadership to ethics and consent
- how ACE partners with departments through a hub-and-spoke model, secondments, and capability building
- planning evaluation from day one using program logic and theory of change
- separating program cost from evaluation cost to make smarter investment decisions
- publishing and normalising evidence through the ACE Evaluation Library
- using developmental evaluation and test-and-learn without getting stuck refining measures forever
- what decision makers value under time pressure, including “killer stats” plus narrative and qualitative insight
- improving services with small, fast trials like pre-call SMS nudges at Services Australia
Mentioned in this episode:
- Australian Centre for Evaluation
- ACE Evaluation Library, hosted on the Australian Policy Observatory
- The Magenta Book
- Anthony Costello, The Social Edge
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!The moment of maximum ignorance: evaluation in public policy part 2
Three-quarters of government evaluations are commissioned to improve implementation. Two-thirds are commissioned for accountability.They're not the same thing, and building a system that serves both turns …
Show notes
Three-quarters of government evaluations are commissioned to improve implementation. Two-thirds are commissioned for accountability.
They're not the same thing, and building a system that serves both turns out to be harder than it looks.
This episode is about the structural tension between backward-looking accountability — did we deliver what we promised? — and the forward-looking question of whether we're actually learning anything useful.
Caroline argues the current measurement architecture is structurally bad at three things: it locks in categories at the moment of maximum ignorance, it treats evidence as binary when almost everything useful lives in the middle, and it has no way of capturing what you found out that you didn't know you were looking for.
There's also a detour through lifts, chin hairs, tattoo-level decisions, and Marie-Antoinette's diningware.
Referenced in the pod:
- The APS State of Evaluation report (2026) — the list of why government commissions evaluations
- Andrew Greenway's article on Sir Olly Robbins and The Accountability Act
- Adam Kucharski's article Do we need more 'aluminium-standard' evidence?
- Inside the Box: How Constraints Make Us Better by David Epstein
- Tom Loosemore Universal Credit TWT episode
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!💰 ‘Not your money’: reflections from government budget season ✂️
Budget season is here — and it’s tighter than many public servants have been used to. Across Australian jurisdictions, governments are landing budgets with real constraints: restrained spending, savings …
Show notes
Budget season is here — and it’s tighter than many public servants have been used to. Across Australian jurisdictions, governments are landing budgets with real constraints: restrained spending, savings packages, efficiency dividends, and the ever-popular one-in-two-out hiring freeze.
In this episode, Caroline, Alison and Danielle get into what that actually means for the people who have to keep delivering. How do you lead a team through savings without poisoning the culture? What’s the difference between a genuine moral injury and just disagreeing with a prioritisation decision? And is the blunt force of FTE targets and advertising bans the problem — or just a feature of a system that has tried everything else?
They also get into the real work: Danielle on essential vs lovely and what service redesign actually looks like when the envelope gets tighter, plus the Stockdale paradox, why constraints might be good for your team (sorry), and some practical advice for junior staff trying not to doom-spiral.
Budget constraint isn’t persecution. It’s elected officials doing what they were elected to do with taxpayer money. Suck it up, and here’s how.
Mentioned in this episode:
- Brené Brown and Adam Grant on the Stockdale Paradox — The Curiosity Shop
- David Epstein, Inside the Box: How constraints make us better
- Alfred Lansing, Endurance: Shackleton’s Incredible Voyage
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Grumpy, elusive creatures defending well-defined territory: evaluation in public policy 🦡
In 1997, Tony Blair’s government inherited a problem: tuberculosis in cattle was rising, farmers were furious, and nobody agreed on whether badgers were responsible. The solution was to commission a …
Show notes
In 1997, Tony Blair’s government inherited a problem: tuberculosis in cattle was rising, farmers were furious, and nobody agreed on whether badgers were responsible. The solution was to commission a gold-standard randomised control trial — 30 sites across the southwest of England, three conditions, run by an independent scientific group. Proper science. No cutting corners.
Eleven years and £49 million later, the trial produced findings that made things more complicated, not less. Reactive culling of badgers made TB rates worse. Proactive culling helped inside cull zones but increased rates in surrounding areas. Two expert panels reviewed the same data and reached opposite conclusions. And by the time the final report landed, the minister who commissioned the review had left office, the department had been restructured, and the politics had moved somewhere else entirely.This episode is the first in our three-part series on evaluation in government. It’s not an argument against evidence — it’s an argument for being honest about what evidence can and can’t deliver, and what happens when government treats a long-run trial as a substitute for judgment rather than an input into it.
Also: there are quite a lot of badgers.
Referenced in the show
- Angela Cassidy’s book — Vermin, Victims and Disease
- The New Yorker article on placebos in RCTs, The Power of Nothing by Michael Specter
- Australian Centre for Evaluation’s paper on RCTs
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Fight club: things we never agree on
Inspired by the new podcast The Curiosity Shop, Alison, Danielle and Caroline take on the things they might never agree on — welcome to TWT Fight Club. In the ring: Do academic and conceptual frameworks …
Show notes
Inspired by the new podcast The Curiosity Shop, Alison, Danielle and Caroline take on the things they might never agree on — welcome to TWT Fight Club.
In the ring:
- Do academic and conceptual frameworks actually help public servants do their jobs, or are they a privilege that most people simply don't have time for?
- Central agencies: great idea, but are they delivering? The trio debates whether they're connectors and coordinators — or arrogant secret-keepers who love a template.
- Delivery units get their moment in the ring too, with strong views on the difference between a compliance-heavy traffic light report and genuine brokerage between agencies.
- And the big one: would they go back to the public service? Caroline misses it in her bones, Danielle has a very petty list of reasons why probably not, and Alison is delighted to never write another bona fide.
Referenced in this episode:
James Plunkett, The Centre is from Mars, the Edges are from Venus:
https://medium.com/@jamestplunkett/the-centre-is-from-mars-the-edges-are-from-venus-abca86f66bb8This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Smart dissent: middle management
A new hypothetical scenario, this time from the big smoosh of middle management.Imagine if... your Minister has announced a 15-day processing target, your team is already drowning, there's no cutting …
Show notes
A new hypothetical scenario, this time from the big smoosh of middle management.
Imagine if... your Minister has announced a 15-day processing target, your team is already drowning, there's no cutting corners, and there's no extra resourcing.
In this episode, Alison, Danielle and Caroline unpack the impossible balancing act of middle management in high-pressure public sector environments: communicating risk upward without sounding obstructive, keeping teams together during the crunch, and swallowing 'I told you so'.
The conversation explores:
- How to communicate nuance and operational complexity to time-poor senior executives
- The difference between raising risks and sounding like “Henny Penny”
- Why storytelling is often more effective than spreadsheets when escalating concerns
- The practical levers managers can pull during workload surges, from triage to temporary staffing
- The dangers of “go faster mania” and performance targets detached from operational reality
- The swallowed “I told you so” — and how after-action reviews can turn frustration into learning
- Why being right is not enough, and why building a clear record matters
- How to be transparent with teams during periods of sustained pressure and uncertainty
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Seen and not heard
How public can public servants be in the social media age? Is having a LinkedIn account a professional necessity, or a professional risk?In this episode, Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the history, rules …
Show notes
How public can public servants be in the social media age? Is having a LinkedIn account a professional necessity, or a professional risk?
In this episode, Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the history, rules and realities of what public servants can say, post, share and support publicly. From LinkedIn humblebrags and anonymous Twitter accounts, to global political conflicts, the conversation explores how Westminster principles of neutrality collide with modern digital life.
Mentioned in this episode:
- APSC 'Social media: Guidance for Australian Public Service Employees and Agencies': https://www.apsc.gov.au/aps-values/social-media-guidance-australian-public-service-employees-and-agencies
- Black swans – “The city that ten beers built” If You’re Listening. ABC Listen. https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/if-youre-listening/the-city-that-ten-beers-built/106245972
- John Menadue — Are Australian public servants condemned to be silent members of society?: https://johnmenadue.com/post/2024/11/are-australian-public-servants-condemned-to-be-silent-members-of-society-ready/
- Comcare v Banerji [2019] HCA 23: https://www.hcourt.gov.au/cases-and-judgments/cases/decided/case-c122018
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Kylie Kilgour, Deputy Commissioner at the NACC: On Robodebt
In her first interview since the release of the NACC’s report into Robodebt, Deputy Commissioner Kylie Kilgour joins us to unpack her findings and what it all means for the public service. This is a rare chance …
Show notes
In her first interview since the release of the NACC’s report into Robodebt, Deputy Commissioner Kylie Kilgour joins us to unpack her findings and what it all means for the public service. This is a rare chance to go beyond the written report with candid reflections on the conditions that led to one of most significant failures of public administration in Australia, and the complexities of the accountability process.
In this episode, we cover:
- the four key contributing factors to serious corrupt conduct: ignorance of the law, failure to work with lawyers, rushed timelines and senior pressure
- why being “polite and collegiate” can fail - and the risks of not making concerns unmistakably clear
- how austerity, budget cycles and unrealistic deadlines distort judgement and behaviour
- the role of toxic culture, including bullying, fear of speaking up, and the myth of untouchable senior leaders
- the difference between serious maladministration and corrupt conduct - and why some high-profile referrals did not meet the legal threshold for corrupt conduct
- what Robodebt reveals about missed opportunities to intervene - and the consequences of not listening
The NACC's Guide to Ethical Decision-Making: https://www.nacc.gov.au/research-and-guides#ethical-decision-making-a-guide
Operation Myrtleford Report: https://www.nacc.gov.au/investigation-reports-and-case-studies#operation-myrtleford
Get in touch with the NACC: https://www.nacc.gov.au/about-nacc/contact-us
Further NACC resources:This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Robodebt: Reflections on the NACC's Findings
On 11 March, the National Anti-Corruption Commission released its findings on Robodebt. It found that two of the six referred public servants engaged in serious corrupt conduct, and four did not. Caroline …
Show notes
On 11 March, the National Anti-Corruption Commission released its findings on Robodebt. It found that two of the six referred public servants engaged in serious corrupt conduct, and four did not.
Caroline, Alison and Danielle discuss three things: the "low level" code of conduct failures that created the toxic soil in which corrupt conduct could grow; the detail of the NACC's findings on the Robodebt Six; and the harder, unresolved question of whether individual accountability processes can ever be adequate for system failure with Robodebt's scale of human harm.
Referenced in this episode:
- Jenny Miller, The Saturday Paper https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2026/03/21/robodebt-six-they-continue-i-am-left-with-urn-containing-the-ashes-my
- Rick Morton, Cut Through podcast (Crikey) https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/cut-through/id1616953809?i=1000756172293
- NACC, findings on Robodebt referrals, 11 March 2025 https://www.nacc.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2026-03/Operation%20Myrtleford%20Investigation%20Report.pdf
- Commissioner Holmes, Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme — sealed section https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Tabled_Documents/15488
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Mad Cow Disease part 4 - unblocking the beef chain
In our last episode on Mad Cow Disease, we take our final lessons from the public servicing of this massive health, agricultural and economic crisis. With the benefit of hindsight, we weigh the significant …
Show notes
In our last episode on Mad Cow Disease, we take our final lessons from the public servicing of this massive health, agricultural and economic crisis. With the benefit of hindsight, we weigh the significant market interventions and public perception against actual transmission data.
In this episode:
- What decision making looks like under radical uncertainty, where its government's job to keep things running.
- The massive supply chain repercussions of the beef ban, and how much expertise policymakers actually need when making interventions.
- Whether the public has a realistic understanding of what governments can achieve in a crisis and whether governments can still have an honest conversation about trade offs for the public good.
- Why sensing the public mood is not “political”, but a critical source of information about whether policy is working or failing.
- Whether more information and transparency actually build confidence in a democratised media environment, including social media and large language models.
- Where actual transmission ended up, and how it compares with other risk calculations and personal mitigations.
- What all of this means for modern public servants operating in systems where uncertainty is the norm, not the exception.
Insiders, Chris Bowen - Energy Minister (22/3/2026)https://iview.abc.net.au/show/insiders?utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared
The Rest Is History podcast - Revolution In Iran | Fall of the Shah (Part 1) https://therestishistory.com/episodes/fall-of-the-shah-part-1
Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Talebhttps://www.penguin.com.au/books/fooled-by-randomness-9780141031484
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Mad Cow Disease part 3 - too much on Monday, too little on Thursday
It’s March 1996 and the UK Government announces that mad cow disease has been linked to human cases. Within days beef consumption falls by half, public confidence is non-existent, and ministers begin meeting in …
Show notes
It’s March 1996 and the UK Government announces that mad cow disease has been linked to human cases. Within days beef consumption falls by half, public confidence is non-existent, and ministers begin meeting in chaotic quasi-cabinet groups sometimes twice a day.
In this episode we discuss:
- How to brief best in the chaos of things changing by the hour
- Whether policy should change when the risk hasn't changed, but risk perception has.
- The policy process where decisions are not weighed but whittled down by what’s acceptable to industry and public
- Why what seemed like an extreme policy response on Monday suddenly felt inadequate by Thursday
- Whether scenario planning is useful when public sentiment in unpredictable and irrational
- Why in a crisis it is better to stop complaining about constantly changing decisions and simply focus on being useful
- How the EU's hardline and indefinite export ban politically wedged the UK
- The difficulty of restoring public confidence when there is no clear wrongdoing to find and fix, and the crisis is largely the product of uncertainty
- The realities of how much the contemporary populace can realistically sustain engagement with multiple complex risks at once
New Species of Trouble by Kai Erikson
https://www.amazon.com.au/New-Species-Trouble-Experience-Disasters/dp/0393313190Any Ordinary Day - Leigh Sales
https://www.penguin.com.au/books/any-ordinary-day-9781760893637This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!What Makes a Bloody Good Policy Officer?
Few people come to policy officer positions with specific policy training. They might be teachers, lawyers, front-line workers or subject-matter experts. Who teaches us how to do policy work, and what policy …
Show notes
Few people come to policy officer positions with specific policy training. They might be teachers, lawyers, front-line workers or subject-matter experts. Who teaches us how to do policy work, and what policy actually is? Enter Salli Cohen’s brilliant new book, 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer.'
In this episode we catch up with Salli about:
- Her one-word definition of policy.
- What it takes to be a genuinely good policy officer, beyond technical competence.
- The difference between evidence-based and evidence-informed.
- Why curiosity, empathy and humility are not ‘soft’ skills but core capabilities.
- The importance of an orientation to serving the community.
- Keeping your antennae up to context, politics and implementation realities.
- The importance of letting people say their bit.
- Speaking up when things are going pear-shaped.
- Salli’s hopes for the next generation of policy professionals.
Purchase Salli's book 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer' officer here: https://www.thepolicyroom.com/product/Rollercoaster
Next week we return with Part 3 of our Mad Cow Disease series.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!'Mad Cow Disease' part 2 - a bogus professor and a dead cat
Part 2 of 4 on Mad Cow Disease: In this episode, the cracks in enforcement are showing, panic is slowly boiling, and the science is catching up. What we cover: The panic spike when BSE appears in domestic …
Show notes
Part 2 of 4 on Mad Cow Disease: In this episode, the cracks in enforcement are showing, panic is slowly boiling, and the science is catching up.
What we cover:
- The panic spike when BSE appears in domestic cats
- The danger of stopping at the legislation, without interrogating whether industry is complying and how you would know.
- The reassurance cycle – shock, anxiety, reassurance, repeat, and whether the Government could or should have said more.
- The political landscape of EU export pressure, an era of deregulation, and expensive subsidies
- From variable, localised enforcement to a centralised Meat Hygiene Service.
- Where we end up by late 1995 – no human cases yet, but the MHS has a horrifying revelation that undermines trust in the controls.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!'Mad Cow Disease' part 1 - a crisis without a crime
We kick off a new series on 'Mad Cow Disease', or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), and what it teaches us about governing when the science is uncertain, the consequences are enormous, but the …
Show notes
We kick off a new series on 'Mad Cow Disease', or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), and what it teaches us about governing when the science is uncertain, the consequences are enormous, but the risks are very remote.
- Why BSE became a lasting symbol of government failure and secrecy, even though major inquiries later found decisions were largely science led.
- Where to draw the line for regulatory settings with big market consequences.
- Who really decides when portfolios collide, and who pays.
- Why Pedigree pet food had a surprising influence on the risk ‘appetite’
- Whether there is the authorising environment to act beyond the scientific advice.
- Spoiler alert: “over reacting” and “under reacting” are not opposites, they overlap.
The brilliant podcast, ‘The Cows are Mad’ by BBC.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001rrhy/episodes/player
The West Wing: Season 3, episode 9 (featuring Mad Cow disease).
https://youtu.be/ouBr3F2qWMI?si=uecMkFaQFnMGVvyL&t=220
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!How to do Big Reform
We want to make lasting and meaningful change, but how do we get there? In this special episode Caroline interviews Frances Foster-Thorpe and Jason Tabarias about their insights into the skills and frameworks …
Show notes
We want to make lasting and meaningful change, but how do we get there? In this special episode Caroline interviews Frances Foster-Thorpe and Jason Tabarias about their insights into the skills and frameworks needed to tackle large, complex and ambitious reform.
We cover:
- Biting off what you can chew by picking two of three factors: volume, cost, quality
- Examples of big Australian reforms that did and didn't hit the mark
- Lining up stakeholder expectations, the authorising environment, and operational capability
- Stretching the political window of opportunity by looking up and out
- Why sequencing can be a more productive conversation than prioritisation
- Proposals that are needs or community-led, evidence based and implementation-ready
- Making cross-system collaboration work: everyone is a colleague, everyone has valuable knowledge, and everyone is responsible for doing as much as we can
- Tips for system diplomats and working with system diplomats
Mark Moore's strategic triangle
Geoff Mulgan 'The Art of Public Strategy'
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Chapters (15)
How It Started v How It’s Going: 3 years of TWT
Buy a sports car or start a podcast. It all could have gone the way of a new hobby, with audio kit languishing in a drawer. Instead, this podcast has become a study and celebration of the tricky craft of public …
Show notes
Buy a sports car or start a podcast. It all could have gone the way of a new hobby, with audio kit languishing in a drawer. Instead, this podcast has become a study and celebration of the tricky craft of public service, and it's a source of pure joy for us.
Reflecting on three years of TWT:
- Humble and haphazard beginnings
- What’s changed since the Robodebt Royal Commission
- Our favourite interviews, scandals, episodes
- Lifting the veil on moments of chaos
- Our favourite moments with listeners (and do we need an identifier for the TWT listener cohort?)
- Learnings on the journey and things we’ve changed our minds on
And that’s a wrap for 2025. Till next year!
Alison listing all the places we’ve “recorded” sounds remarkably like Shaggy… https://youtu.be/p4qqOHllgps?si=uEHlcD6JMW9Jabng
‘Abundance: How We Build a Better Future’ by Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Ezra-Klein,-Derek-Thompson-Abundance-9781805226055
Nigella Lawson reading ‘How to eat’ https://www.audible.com.au/pd/How-to-Eat-The-Pleasures-and-Principles-of-Good-Food-Audiobook/1473567351
Colin Firth’s indecent gravel: https://www.amazon.com/The-End-of-Affair-Graham-Greene-audiobook/dp/B0081293SO
Anything narrated by Richard Roxburgh https://www.audible.com.au/search?searchNarrator=Richard+Roxburgh&ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&pf_rd_p=771c6463-05d7-4981-9b47-920dc34a70f1&pf_rd_r=C0M8084B840VVEERZRJ5&plink=IArL51tFosgDIpzy&pageLoadId=FlLq75E1cuzEn4oS&creativeId=adcc4fec-4d90-49d1-997e-8be21d68ce7f&ref=a_search_c3_lNarrator_1_2_1
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Chapters
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Buzzword Bingo
In this Christmas special, Caroline, Alison and Danielle unwrap the public service’s most gear-grinding buzzwords, what they’re supposed to mean and what they have now quietly become. With words crowdsourced …
Show notes
In this Christmas special, Caroline, Alison and Danielle unwrap the public service’s most gear-grinding buzzwords, what they’re supposed to mean and what they have now quietly become. With words crowdsourced from the fine listeners of TWT, we talk:
- Big serious words and how their technical meanings have drifted
- The corporate visitors who arrived and never left
- Words that hide fear or indecision
- How co-design can be a handbrake, and why government struggles to set boundaries on what is genuinely up for shaping.
- Word of the year: nature-positive
The brilliant book that Alison refers to is ‘The Right Kind of Wrong’ by Amy Edmondson: https://www.dymocks.com.au/right-kind-of-wrong-by-amy-edmondson-9781847943781
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Chapters
Loading chapters …
Imagine if... you were leading an orchard of bad apples
Your shiny new promotion turns out to be more than you bargained for. In this scenario-based "Imagine if..." episode, Caroline and Danielle assume the role of a newly promoted manager who steps into a team they …
Show notes
Your shiny new promotion turns out to be more than you bargained for.
In this scenario-based "Imagine if..." episode, Caroline and Danielle assume the role of a newly promoted manager who steps into a team they didn’t choose and some character-building challenges.
⚠️ Mild trigger warning for the depiction of toxic colleagues - we've all had one!
We cover:
- Walking the floor and gathering intel
- How to give the boss response to a credibility challenge
- Clarifying the authorising environment
- Lifting work quality
- When to whip out the whiteboard to create a two-way learning exercise
- Setting a vision and direction for the team that’s sensitive to the past
- Responding to bad behaviour that’s not quite misconduct
- To report or not to report; the risks of weighing in
Good egg managers in the Re Meagher case
https://hearsay.org.au/graduate-lawyer-fails-in-fair-work-act-bullying-claim/This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Chapters
Loading chapters …
Imagine if … your sleepy grants program woke up
When politics meets process, what’s a conscientious public servant to do? This “Imagine if…” episode puts Alison and Danielle in the shoes of a project manager caught between legality, leadership and media heat …
Show notes
When politics meets process, what’s a conscientious public servant to do? This “Imagine if…” episode puts Alison and Danielle in the shoes of a project manager caught between legality, leadership and media heat — and explores what good judgment looks like when everyone’s waiting to be told what’s important.
The first in an “Imagine if…” series as requested by listeners — exploring the messy, real-world dilemmas of public administration.
We cover:
· Managing up and whether to buy into your boss’ crazy
· The hurry up and wait of briefing on options
· Verbal directions and when to turn them into written confirmation
· When to seek advice on legality
· Documentation! And the safeguard of personal file noting
· The fallacy of ‘not my job’ when every problem for government is a problem for everyone in government
· Having multiple comms plans and when not to pick up the phone
· The impacts of external pressure on internal process.
· Trap for the young players: informal intel travels very quickly
· Who gets to make the decision?
· Building in agility to allow for changing priorities
Shout out to the Normal Gossip podcast for inspiring this episode: https://open.spotify.com/show/0KVZ16mLZ1bbNlnKemYTzm
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Inside the public service's ‘Human Handbrake’: why reform stalls and how to fix it
Demos has released a fascinating paper, The Human Handbrake, on the five human habits that stall public sector reform. In this episode we pick through each of them - fear, heroics, tribes, tidiness, and tempo …
Show notes
Demos has released a fascinating paper, The Human Handbrake, on the five human habits that stall public sector reform. In this episode we pick through each of them - fear, heroics, tribes, tidiness, and tempo - and test practical fixes from risk stratification to outcome-focused equity. Topics covered include:
- fear-driven risk culture and how to stratify risk
- safe-to-fail spaces vs non-negotiable protections
- policy hero incentives vs long-term stewardship
- recruitment, merit, and better references
- tribes and bridges between centre and frontline
- proximity, exchanges, and communities of practice
- simplicity bias vs equity and local texture
- outcome measurement, real-time data, and storytelling
- political tempo, accountability, and transparent milestones
- culture as accelerator, not brake.
We covered a wild variety of content in this episode. Here's a smattering:
- Demos The Human Handbrake
- What do blueberries have to do with my job?
- The Trust Equation
- CONTAINED 30 minutes. 3 rooms. One truth about youth justice.
- e61 research on the shift in social spend “Dependency should be debated”
- The newspaper wall in the Kingsman movies
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!“It’s just a minor restructure” said no calendar ever
In our second change management episode, Danielle pulls apart the myth of the “minor” restructure and lay out a practical way to change without breaking the work. From function mapping and ministerial comms to …
Show notes
In our second change management episode, Danielle pulls apart the myth of the “minor” restructure and lay out a practical way to change without breaking the work. From function mapping and ministerial comms to union engagement and the “fourth trimester”, we consider how to make change stick with clarity and care.
- why six to nine months is realistic for restructures
- function before form and mapping real work
- aligning vision to delivery using bottom‑up design
- ministers and boards as informed stakeholders, not deciders
- the centralise versus localise accordion and trade‑offs
- middle managers as the glue of change
- naming unknowns, iteration, and review cycles
- working with unions
- plumbing and HR sequencing that stalls programs
- after ‘go‑live’ habits, SOPs, and consistent standards
- what’s up for grabs versus non‑negotiable boundaries
- logistics people actually care about: seats, commutes, WFH.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Who Really Moved My Cheese? Tales from the change management trenches
Danielle takes us on a romp through change management, starting, as with all good contrarians, with a challenge to the idea of ‘change management’ itself. Some of the ideas covered:Change is happening all the …
Show notes
Danielle takes us on a romp through change management, starting, as with all good contrarians, with a challenge to the idea of ‘change management’ itself.
Some of the ideas covered:
- Change is happening all the time in government, not just during formal "change management" periods
- Most people dislike uncertainty rather than change itself
- Mission and values-driven staff struggle most with macro changes that shift agency direction
- Medium-level changes (like new systems) are often underestimated and underfunded
- The "don't be a dickhead rule" isn't enough—change management is genuinely difficult
- Leaders should listen carefully to "change resistors" who may be flagging legitimate risks
- Administrative foundations must be solid before change begins (position descriptions, contracts, etc.)
- Different professional groups (lawyers, scientists, policy officers) respond differently to change
- Maintaining a stable core while being honest about what's changing helps navigate transitions.
Referenced in this episode:
- If Books Could Kill pod on Who Moved My Cheese?
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!Regulator/policy cage fight: ANZSOG National Regulators Community of Practice Conference 2025
Our first live show at the wildly successful ANZSOG NRCOP Conference in Brisbane August 2025.The conversation tackles head-on the structural disconnections between our regulatory and policy systems …
Show notes
Our first live show at the wildly successful ANZSOG NRCOP Conference in Brisbane August 2025.
The conversation tackles head-on the structural disconnections between our regulatory and policy systems, particularly in federated models like early childhood education. How do we reconcile a Commonwealth pouring billions into subsidies while state-based quality regulators remain chronically underfunded? What happens when funding accessibility doesn't come with proportionate strengthening of quality oversight?
Most revealing is the discussion about regulatory independence versus political interference. While statutory independence is crucial for regulatory integrity, our panelists acknowledge the reality that regulators remain part of government—subject to ministerial directions, government resourcing decisions, and public sector constraints.
This creates a challenging balance that every regulator must navigate daily.
Alison leaves with the best advice for all emerging regulators - find your people, people who you can trust and you can talk with and test your thinking.
Referenced in this episode:
- James Shipton The Regulatory State: Faults, Flaws and False Assumptions
- NRCoP 2025 National Conference Regulation 2025 to 2050: Disruption, Change and Continuity
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time!
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